cemetary, council and removal of personal obejcts from grave.

System

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Exhibit A

I must admit the cemetary my daughter is placed in (or bits of her but thats another story) is a bit like that. If it wasnt for the white marble headstone i'd have to go searching for her.

Personally, i can see why people do it as its an expression of their love but its something not for me.... i choose to grieve in my own way.

Tiddlywinks

mumps wrote: »

Did anyone see the new Big Fat Gypsy Wedding this week. I was watching the bit about First Holy Communion and thinking how lovely I thought my daughter looked in her simple white cotton dress with fresh flowers in her hair compared to the way these girls were dressed. Then I saw the priest who was lovely, welcoming these children and complementing them on how glamorous they looked, I felt ashamed. Who are we to judge, who am I to judge. Let people spend hundreds on dresses that I would never choose, let people put what they like on graves. I don't know why we need an American style cemetery or a French style cemetery, we are supposed to be a tolerant society, let people grieve for their loved ones without people being so judgemental, calling their things crap or tacky, how is that appropriate?

A bright and visually or audibly intrusive communion outfit (for what is a joyful ceremony) is in no way comparable to an area set aside for those who wish to mourn for their loved ones and where all they wish for is peace and serenity for quiet contemplation.

The "American style" graves description is a red herring - headstones can be personalised, vases can be filled.

Sadly, given the lack of consideration shown to other users by some, there will now always be a need for cemetaries to have standard and enforceable requirements in order to maintain the sombre nature of the site. If people don't have a natural sense of what is right (or wrong) to inflict on others in an area set aside to mourn then they need to have it listed out for them.

Welshwoofs

coolcait wrote: »

Well, they've started a Facebook page which uses insulting and profane language to describe council members. They've threatened violence against anyone who tries to enforce the regulations, threatened to dump the topsoil from a grave in a bin.

I found that Facebook page depressing full stop. Using foul language, insults to council staff and threats of violence a) doesn't gain them a lot of sympathy for their situation and b) will make it much harder to gain a resolution to the situation they're happy with.

As disturbing as that was the clear indication from the majority of people on that page that they're not actually aware they don't own the land their loved ones are buried in.

And I'm just going to gloss over some of the more hysterical statements such as cutting the grass over a grave being 'disrespectful'.

The upshot is that I can't imagine this will have a happy outcome unless they can act a little more politely when representing their concerns.

mumps

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

A bright and visually or audibly intrusive communion outfit (for what is a joyful ceremony) is in no way comparable to an area set aside for those who wish to mourn for their loved ones and where all they wish for is peace and serenity for quiet contemplation.

The "American style" graves description is a red herring - headstones can be personalised, vases can be filled.

Sadly, given the lack of consideration shown to other users by some, there will now always be a need for cemetaries to have standard and enforceable requirements in order to maintain the sombre nature of the site. If people don't have a natural sense of what is right (or wrong) to inflict on others in an area set aside to mourn then they need to have it listed out for them.

But who decides what is right and what is wrong? It isn't the same for everyone and I the impression I get from some of the judgemental comments on here is that people feel that people who wish to decorate graves are to be looked down on. I would have alot more respect for people's view if words like crap and trash weren't used.

To me Communion is a very serious and moving thing, the first time a child takes Communion is very significant. To remember the Crucifixion and to join in with that ceremony from The Last Supper, to take the Body of Christ is so much more significant than a joyful occasion. That is why I don't see it as an occasion to dress up in quite provocative outfits but as I said that priest made me realise that to welcome these children into the Communion of the Catholic Church is what is important. It is also important to remember that people will grieve in their own way, as long as they aren't making other people do the same then I think they have as many rights as people like me who want their graves plain.

The cemetery where my father is buried is a bit like a park, it is used as a shortcut to two schools, one of the schools borders the cemetery. You can sit there in the day and see dog walkers passing, hear children playing, sometimes have a football come by. My fathers grave is my focus when I am there, I focus on him and only notice the other things as I am arriving and leaving. I rarely look at another grave, why would I?

mountainofdebt

mumps wrote: »

Did anyone see the new Big Fat Gypsy Wedding this week. I was watching the bit about First Holy Communion and thinking how lovely I thought my daughter looked in her simple white cotton dress with fresh flowers in her hair compared to the way these girls were dressed. Then I saw the priest who was lovely, welcoming these children and complementing them on how glamorous they looked, I felt ashamed.

Well he was hardly likely to stand there and say something of the lines of "well for the love of God what do you look like" was he - even if that's what he was thinking.

meritaten

coolcait wrote: »

Can I remind you that a number of posters on this thread have stated, in firm terms, that they feel that is is inappropriate to judge the way that others choose to mourn their dead?

You are among that number, and you have thanked others who have stated the 'do not judge!' view in strong terms.

So, why judge those who have chosen to mark their loved ones' passing in a way which is different from yours?

Headstones with integral flower vases are fully compliant with the existing cemetery policies. The families involved may simply be content to respect their fellow cemetery users, by following the policies.

It's a huge leap from that to suggesting that "these people have been interred and forgotten"

It's possible to remember, mourn and cherish a lost loved one quietly, simply and unobstrusively.

If someone feels the need to create a special area of remembrance, then they can do that in a special part of their garden; in the loved one's room; by paying for a bench to be sited in a part of the country which they loved.

However, since you have chosen to criticise the families of those interred in those simple graves (and they could be identified, especially given the publicity which the feverish internet campaigning is attracting to this graveyard), let me offer another viewpoint.

Maybe the ostentatious displays are not saying 'See how this person was loved'. Maybe they're saying "See how I loved this person".

no - I havent criticised the families of those interred in simple graves - I was merely pointing out that there was NO evidence of them visiting the grave. How could there be? no grave pots to leave flowers in? would you want a grave pot to put the flowers in - or would you be happy to leave your offering to die within a day or two?
Besides which - not every grave has visitors. I find that sad.

What is wrong with declaring how much YOU loved that person?
I dont understand why you think there is something wrong about that.

I think people should be allowed to grieve and mourn how they like - and the one thing this thread has done - is changed my mind about the Tacky Tat that people leave on graves.
Having heard from other posters why they do it - I can understand thier feelings now. even before that - visiting the childrens graves - I thought that it was nice that people were still taking them toys etc.

another thing I have learned - never ever use sarcasm to make a point - people just dont get it!

mountainofdebt

meritaten wrote: »

no - I havent criticised the families of those interred in simple graves - I was merely pointing out that there was NO evidence of them visiting the grave. How could there be? no grave pots to leave flowers in? would you want a grave pot to put the flowers in - or would you be happy to leave your offering to die within a day or two?

Well on the basis that I doubt the cemetary has a signing in book how does anyone know if a grave has been visited or not? Now I personally like to see a graveyard full of flowers but I appreciate that not everyone can afford flowers - and the graveyard in question isn't exactly in an affulent part of Wales.

meritaten wrote: »

Besides which - not every grave has visitors. I find that sad.

Yes it is sad but people don't stay in the area that they were born in anymore so its not surprising really is it?

Errata

Besides which - not every grave has visitors. I find that sad.

Perhaps because the nearest and dearest have also kicked the bucket, or live in Australia, or visit and leave behind nothing but footprints and take away nothing but memories.

Tiddlywinks

meritaten wrote: »

yeah - lovely well maintained headstones - do you see any sign anyone has actualy BEEN there? any flowers? apart from the obviously fake ones stuck in the ground? actually - can you see any grave pots for people to put flowers in? the only ones I can see are to the side of headstone or have them integral to the headstones. to me it looks like these people have been interred and forgotten. but never mind that - it DOES look neat and tidy.

meritaten wrote: »

no - I havent criticised the families of those interred in simple graves - I was merely pointing out that there was NO evidence of them visiting the grave. How could there be? no grave pots to leave flowers in? would you want a grave pot to put the flowers in - or would you be happy to leave your offering to die within a day or two?
...........
another thing I have learned - never ever use sarcasm to make a point - people just dont get it!

I found your insinuation that a simple grave = buried and forgotten very insulting and I explained why in my previous post. Your "sarcasm" just added to the insult frankly - and I did get it; you were having a dig.

mumps wrote: »

But who decides what is right and what is wrong? It isn't the same for everyone and I the impression I get from some of the judgemental comments on here is that people feel that people who wish to decorate graves are to be looked down on. I would have alot more respect for people's view if words like crap and trash weren't used.

To me Communion is a very serious and moving thing ..... is so much more significant than a joyful occasion.
.........

It is also important to remember that people will grieve in their own way, as long as they aren't making other people do the same then I think they have as many rights as people like me who want their graves plain.
.............

I rarely look at another grave, why would I?

I really ddn't need a lecture on catholicism thank you - as pointed out, the joy of celebrating a first communion is not really the same as mourning a loved one. Besides, I do agree with the other poster who said the priest was probably being polite.

As to "people will grieve in their own way" - yes, but why must it be so outrageously gawdy that it impacts on my wish to have peace and simplicity?

As to why I would look at another grave? How could I miss the carnival or colour and sound of some of these "memorials"? Pimp your car, your house but someone's grave? That's taking the "bling" just too far.

mumps

mountainofdebt wrote: »

Well he was hardly likely to stand there and say something of the lines of "well for the love of God what do you look like" was he - even if that's what he was thinking.

No but he didn't just not say anything, he was warm and welcoming and telling them how great they looked.

Thinking about it I have known priests who would have said something along those lines, one in particular but that is a whole other thread.