cemetary, council and removal of personal obejcts from grave.

coolcait

meritaten wrote: »

yeah - lovely well maintained headstones - do you see any sign anyone has actualy BEEN there? any flowers? apart from the obviously fake ones stuck in the ground? actually - can you see any grave pots for people to put flowers in? the only ones I can see are to the side of headstone or have them integral to the headstones. to me it looks like these people have been interred and forgotten. but never mind that - it DOES look neat and tidy.

Can I remind you that a number of posters on this thread have stated, in firm terms, that they feel that is is inappropriate to judge the way that others choose to mourn their dead?

You are among that number, and you have thanked others who have stated the 'do not judge!' view in strong terms.

So, why judge those who have chosen to mark their loved ones' passing in a way which is different from yours?

Headstones with integral flower vases are fully compliant with the existing cemetery policies. The families involved may simply be content to respect their fellow cemetery users, by following the policies.

It's a huge leap from that to suggesting that "these people have been interred and forgotten"

It's possible to remember, mourn and cherish a lost loved one quietly, simply and unobstrusively.

If someone feels the need to create a special area of remembrance, then they can do that in a special part of their garden; in the loved one's room; by paying for a bench to be sited in a part of the country which they loved.

However, since you have chosen to criticise the families of those interred in those simple graves (and they could be identified, especially given the publicity which the feverish internet campaigning is attracting to this graveyard), let me offer another viewpoint.

Maybe the ostentatious displays are not saying 'See how this person was loved'. Maybe they're saying "See how I loved this person".

mumps

Humphrey10 wrote: »

I would imagine if someone wanted a traditional Jewish grave, they would choose a Jewish graveyard.
If someone had chosen a graveyard that says 'no flowers', then flowers should not be put on graves.
If someone had chosen a graveyard that allows flowers, then people are allowed to put flowers on graves.
The same for all other objects.
If the rules are clear and frequently enforced, I don't see the problem.

In the council owned graveyard where my father is buried he is in the Catholic section, the Jewish section is next to the Catholic section. Our flowers are on view to the Jewish mourners, we see their stones. No one seems to be affronted, maybe we are a particularly tolerant part of the country or maybe the silent majority aren't the people who are affronted by what other people choose to put on their loved ones graves but the people who grieve for their loved ones and leave others to grieve for theirs. How fortunate that my father bought the grave he did.

Welshwoofs

meritaten wrote: »

yeah - lovely well maintained headstones - do you see any sign anyone has actualy BEEN there? any flowers? apart from the obviously fake ones stuck in the ground? actually - can you see any grave pots for people to put flowers in? the only ones I can see are to the side of headstone or have them integral to the headstones. to me it looks like these people have been interred and forgotten. but never mind that - it DOES look neat and tidy.

Why does mourning need to be a public display? It's not a competitive sport.

My step-father and grandfather are buried in my local graveyard and I pass by their graves nearly every day. Neither of their graves have had flowers on since the day they were buried - so does that mean they've been forgotten? No. I mentally wish them well every time I pass.

Tiddlywinks

Person_one wrote: »

... but its just not anybody's place to tell people that their way is wrong or worse.

Eh, yes it is... cemetary regs are notified to those who purchase a right to burial.

meritaten wrote: »

It offends my eye - it doesnt offend anything else - that person was well loved obviously!

...........................

yeah - lovely well maintained headstones ........... to me it looks like these people have been interred and forgotten. but never mind that - it DOES look neat and tidy.

What makes you draw those conclusions - the flip to that is that you insinuate that those graves that are understated contain the remains of less loved individual? I find that insulting.

So, here we have it... is this what it's coming to? People forced to have a "big,fat gypsie grave" to prove they love their dearly departed?

I buried my mum last month after a short and cruel illness, her grave is now marked only by a small cross until the plot is ready for a headstone. Does that mean I have forgotten her? How dare you draw that concluson about the majority of relatives that choose to mourn in an understated and dignified manner.

Humphrey10

mumps wrote: »

In the council owned graveyard where my father is buried he is in the Catholic section, the Jewish section is next to the Catholic section. Our flowers are on view to the Jewish mourners, we see their stones. No one seems to be affronted

Why would they be affronted? People have chosen those graves, they have chosen graves where they know they will see flowers and stones, presumably the graveyard allows flowers and stones to be placed.
It would be very different if someone had chosen a grave in a graveyard that said 'no flowers or stones allowed', and then other people put flowers and stones on graves in that graveyard, then they would have a right to complain.
In the same way if someone choses a grave in a graveyard that allows plastic items on graves, they have no right to complain if people put plastic items on graves.

coolcait

meritaten wrote: »

Eastern cultures where they venerate the ancestors. where they take the family to offer flowers, food and wine - and often decorate the graves.
I dont know of other countries which have just a votive light? enlighten us? do they keep that going? for how long?

Electronic/LED? votive lights. They last for days, even weeks, without needing to be replaced.

Traditional votive lights, if you get one of the huge "cathedral sized" ones, you'll get a good night's worth out of those - maybe a couple of nights if you light them at the right time.

There's a huge cemetery in Rome - if you drive past it at night, at just the right angle, then you can see lots of these lights flickering away. It's very eerie the first time you see it - especially if you heard stories about will o' the wisp and ghost candles at an early age.

Of course, a lot of these visible lights are on graves which are - to the Anglo-Saxon mind - like mortuary drawers. No arguments there about how much of the plot is yours. You buy a horizontal space, in a wall of horizontal spaces, and your loved one is slid in and bricked up. For a limited period of time. After that time, the remains are removed, and transferred to an ossuary.

This approach is used across many countries, many cultures and many religions.

I've seen the same thing in Spain, Portugal and various Latin American countries.

I've almost fallen into an open grave in Portugal (in a cemetery which was adorned with many flowers, but only flowers). I've visited family crypts in the same country, where the coffins were housed on open shelves inside a small stone building.

The Spanish version of Hello magazine (the original, in fact) has regular features involving the burial of someone famous, someone related to someone famous, someone who once knew someone famous, someone whose funeral was attended by someone famous...

There are a lot of dark glasses and emotional swoons in the photos. Not many windmills or windchimes.

In Latin America, I've attended burials were all of the wreaths, flowers and other tributes were buried along with the coffin. so that they wouldn't be recycled. Again, those plots were not 'bought' for all eternity. Anyone who wanted to create a memorial shrine to the deceased put it somewhere that they could keep an eye on the tributes.

In Scandinavia, I've visted sombre but beautiful graveyards. With flowers and gravestones, and candles - particularly ones which echo the 'snowball' tradition.

I've attended Mexican 'Day of the Dead' celebrations - outside Mexico, but in a cemetery which mainly housed the departed loved ones of the Mexican community. Yes, there was lots of partying and so on - but it was in an environment which saw that particular day as part of the 'local' culture.

I must be getting old - I've seen a lot of death!

However, in the UK, there is a tradition, underpinned by law and regulations, which takes a more circumspect approach to the realities of 'buying' a burial plot. Maybe that does have its roots in a British reticence to deal with death.

As a result, a lot of people don't realise that they are not buying a plot of land which they can treat as they wish. They are buying the exclusive right to burial. which comes with restrictions on what you can and cannot do to the surface area.

They don't realise that if you don't get that 'exclusive' right to burial, then your loved one could be spending eternity buried in the same plot as a stranger.

They really don't realise that 'eternity', in graveyard terms, might mean 'a few decades'.

Despite all of that knowledge of death, its traditions, and graveyard etiquette, I still don't know of any other culture which - as a rule - festoons graves quite as liberally as the ones shown in the earlier photo.

Which brings us back to UK traditions and culture. Generally speaking, the minimalist, low-key approach is more prevalent.

mumps

Humphrey10 wrote: »

Why would they be affronted? People have chosen those graves, they have chosen graves where they know they will see flowers and stones, presumably the graveyard allows flowers and stones to be placed.
It would be very different if someone had chosen a grave in a graveyard that said 'no flowers or stones allowed', and then other people put flowers and stones on graves in that graveyard, then they would have a right to complain.
In the same way if someone choses a grave in a graveyard that allows plastic items on graves, they have no right to complain if people put plastic items on graves.

Do you really think there are regulations saying "you can put plastic stuff on graves" My fathers grave was purchased in the 1950s, I have checked th paperwork, nothing about what you can put on the grave, I suspect others might have been the same.

The op said these regulations had been introduced a few years ago, might have been 2008. So what about the people who bought graves before then? From what people are saying some councils are introducing these rules so what are people supposed to do, have the body moved so that thy can put windchimes or something else they want on the grave.

coolcait

All of the above said, what is the bottom line for this thread? Or many others on this board!

Do the OPs just want to rant, and only take notice of anything posted by the people who support their view (while dismissing anyone who disagrees)?

Do they want get an idea of the many different views, to help them decide what to do next? Or are they quite happy if a pantomime style 'Oh no it's not!' 'Oh yes it is!' argument breaks out among the contributors?

Or are they looking for possible solutions to the issue/problem they've posted about - especially in threads which have a verified link to reality?

When it comes to the way graves are 'decorated' there are very different views. There are also very clear regulations and legislation.

There are people on this thread, on the Facebook site, and in the non-internet byways of part of Wales, who disgree with the Council's regulations.

So, how are they trying to put their point across, with a view to having the regulations adapted, even slightly?

Well, they've started a Facebook page which uses insulting and profane language to describe council members. They've threatened violence against anyone who tries to enforce the regulations, threatened to dump the topsoil from a grave in a bin.

They've organised a public meeting, but the rhetoric beforehand led a concerned supporter to give them some very sensible advice on how to behave at the meeting. Leading to the main protagonist on the Facebook page begging people to read that advice.

Really? They need to be told the basics of civil behaviour? How well does that bode for their campaign?

There is also this thread, which speaks for itself.

A complete lack of concrete plans by those who are most vocal about their right to decorate a grave any way they like - notwithstanding regulations or the views of other cemetery users. But plenty of ranting and double standards (not to mention a nifty bit of attempted character assassination).

Welshwoofs was the first person to point out that facts will carry more weight than emotionally manipulative rants (my words, not welshwoofs).

That earned him/her a dsimissive 'bye bye then' from the OP.

Why?

It was a suggestion that will get the OP's campaign a lot further forward than emotional ranting (especially when those rants contain a great deal which is factually inaccurate).

So, does the OP, does the campaign, want suggestions on how to tackle the Council?

Or do they simply want to bewail the unfairness of it all?

If I knew what kind of thread I was on, I'd know how far to bother researching possible arguments which the OP could use with the Council (even though my personal opinions on the adornment of graves are very different).

If it's just a rant, then I'll just get my popcorn...

Humphrey10

mumps wrote: »

Do you really think there are regulations saying "you can put plastic stuff on graves" My fathers grave was purchased in the 1950s, I have checked th paperwork, nothing about what you can put on the grave, I suspect others might have been the same.

Either there are clear rules stating what is or isn't allowed on graves, or there is a free for all where anything can be put on graves (flashing lights, loudspeakers, you can cover the grave in !!!!!! if you like, whatever you want), or you can only put normal graveyard objects there.

I think the first option is the only one that works, personally. In the 1950s I imagine that no one thought it would ever be needed to state what was allowed and what was not, because everyone knew and agreed what was suitable and what was not. Nowadays, it seems people do not agree, that people have very different opinions on what is OK and what is not, so what other option is there other than to introduce rules?

mumps

Humphrey10 wrote: »

Either there are clear rules stating what is or isn't allowed on graves, or there is a free for all where anything can be put on graves (flashing lights, loudspeakers, you can cover the grave in !!!!!! if you like, whatever you want), or you can only put normal graveyard objects there.

I think the first option is the only one that works, personally. In the 1950s I imagine that no one thought it would ever be needed to state what was allowed and what was not, because everyone knew and agreed what was suitable and what was not. Nowadays, it seems people do not agree, that people have very different opinions on what is OK and what is not, so what other option is there other than to introduce rules?

So I lose the right to keep my father's grave as I want it because you think there should be rules? (The fact that I don't want anything other than some flowers is irrelevant) So you think we should follow the rules but if you don't like the rules (or lack of them) then the rules should be changed, if the OP doesn't like the rules then tough. Very democratic, very fair, how lucky we are to have the taste police telling us what we "should" have on graves.

Did anyone see the new Big Fat Gypsy Wedding this week. I was watching the bit about First Holy Communion and thinking how lovely I thought my daughter looked in her simple white cotton dress with fresh flowers in her hair compared to the way these girls were dressed. Then I saw the priest who was lovely, welcoming these children and complementing them on how glamorous they looked, I felt ashamed. Who are we to judge, who am I to judge. Let people spend hundreds on dresses that I would never choose, let people put what they like on graves. I don't know why we need an American style cemetery or a French style cemetery, we are supposed to be a tolerant society, let people grieve for their loved ones without people being so judgemental, calling their things crap or tacky, how is that appropriate?