Dispute with Orange - your opinion needed!

mayforher_2

A bit of advice really… I have an ongoing dispute with Orange at the moment. I got the contract with them at the end of October, they failed to set up my direct debit incorrectly so I called them to do this again. They failed to set it up at all second time round. I called them again and they still hadn’t done it. I then got a letter from them stating I owed two months worth of bills even though one of them should have been taken by Direct Debit and the other had literally that day been generated. I called them to pay the one that should have been taken by Direct Debit and despite confirming I only wanted to pay the one bill they took the full amount, leaving me overdrawn out of my overdraft and with no money whatsoever. I spent the enxt two days on the phone to them with each representative telling me the money would be back in my account in 24 hours. It obviously wasn’t (at this point I had no petrol in my car, no food and no money!). After 11 phone calls with them they told me 5 days later that it would take 4-5 days to go back into my account. I had to borrow some money from my boss because I literally had nothing. Even after all this they STILL hadn’t set my direct debit up correctly. Someone at Orange said that they would cancel my bill and then refund my phone calls to the bank. But then they sent me two cryptic bills which made no sense with things added on and taken off all over the place. Turns out my bill was for the wrong amount and they had been over charging my by £5 a month. This just added to the confusion. So I called them to try and sort that out and had to go to phones 4 u to sort it. I then checked my online account and it was blocked because they hadn’t cancelled the bill as they said they would and basically said I had to pay the money to get my online account back!? They THEN added a late payment mark onto my credit report even though the bill was totally in dispute – throughout this whole process they have repeatedly breached their contract and have told me lies about the status of my account. They have been rude, they have blamed ME for this happening with my account even throughout this whole ordeal all I have been trying to do is pay my freaking bill!

My solicitor has sent a couple of letters to them telling them they have breached my contract and that I want my contract to be terminated. They have basically ignored every allegation and tried to focus on the fact that I haven’t paid my disputed bill yet. Had a bit of a breakthrough this morning when the orange rep agreed to write to the credit agency and get the late payment mark removed (as I have now paid the bill that was in dispute as it has been rectified).

However, I am still FUMING about the service I have received in the last few months of being a customer. My contract is a 24 month contract and I literally feel sick thinking of having to deal with them for the next 2 years!!

My solicitor thinks that I should send a letter saying I will continue my contract but if anything happens again it is a direct breach of contract and I will be terminating my account. I am still not happy that none of the allegations have been answered and that they wont release me from my contract. They obviously know they are in the wrong but will not shoot themselves in the foot.

I just want to know what everyone else would do really? I really do not want to continue this contract, I feel as though I have been completely screwed over, the cost and stress of this whole thing is just totally unacceptable and Orange have been particularly stubborn and quite frankly completely inept throughout. I just want to be released from my contract so I can go to another company.

What would you do, would you let it lie and continue throwing your money at this abomination of a company (imo) or would you fight it until the bitter end?

gjchester

Before you start the process you need to work out why the DD's failed to be setup. Theres no point trying to progress this is you gave a wrong number and if Phones 4 U made the error you need to take it up with them not Orange. If the error is your or P4U's fault then orange are right in putting the mark on your record.

Normally you get a letter in the post after a few days confirming the DD detaisl are you sure they were right on that letter, ie can you pin the problem down.

It's normal also to have 2 months rental taken in in the first bill, once for the month used and one in advance, again you need to check carefully what you are being billed for, if it's the normal first bill thats not unusual.

Where exactly is the breech of contract, ie where has the DD error come from, you need to get to the bottom of that before you can say who breeched the contract. You and your soliciter may know more, but on the details you have posted it's hard to say.

You also say they have ignored allegations, what are you referring to? If you mean putting marks on a credit record for non payment, theres no allegations it's true, you did not pay them on time, the question is why did it heppen and who is to blame. If it's Orange at fault then they may remove it, if it's P4u or yourself who made the error they are right in putting the marks on your file, and you may need to go back to P4U. The fact a bill is in dispuite is to some extent relevent, the record is simply was it paid on time or not.

Your soliciter seems to be unsure what to do, they have said Orange are in breech of a contract and you can cancel and then say you will continue but any further problem will be a breech. It's either breeched or not, thers no middle ground.

Good Luck

grumbler

You really have to make your story more clear as I struggled to make sense out of it.

Feel free to correct my version:

• Because of some errors they failed to set up the DD. Errors do happen. They admitted their error, did not blame you and didn't penalise you for the missed payments.
• Instead of paying this debt over a phone, that was the only correct action, you decided to pay only part and to dispute the other part (why?) and to add extra mess to already complicated situation. I don't see any grounds for 'cancelling' the bill and I guess it was some misunderstanding between you and Orange.
• You had every opportunity to pay the full amount, but decided not to. They quite rightly reported the late payment to the CRA, then blocked your account.

I can be misunderstanding something, but I don't see how errors with setting the DD and charging erroneously extra £5 constitute a breach of contract, but your solicitor probably knows better.

gregpot2000

The way I read it, is that they wanted payment for the 1st bill (fair enough), but also requested money for the 2nd bill that had only just been generated.

With all mobile contracts I have ever had, the payment date is always a couple of weeks after the bill is generated, so the money wasn't actually due, I believe there is actually some legislation on this, and they need to do it to give you chance to raise a dispute with them before any money is taken from your account.

OP, funnily enough I have had the exact same problem with a contract taken out with Phones 4 U in October. My contract was an upgrade and I am with O2, they took details for my new bank account when I signed, but they never processed it so O2 still tried to take the money out of my old account that had no money in, this led to me getting a £10 bank charge.

Even though I'll admit it even I don't believe it was O2s fault, they were very good about it, and when I sent the bank statement showing the charges they credited it to my account, although I guess this could be because it was such a low amount to them it wasn't worth them arguing about.

mayforher_2

ok it wasnt my first bill, it was my November bill they were "chasing" me for. I didnt pay the second phone bill because the woman at orange told me she had set up a direct debit for it so said I didnt need to. She stated that the direct debit was set up for the December bill to be taken from my account. I did not complicate issues whatsoever - do you not have a budget per month you have to stick to? Why would I pay two phone bills in one month when I only owed one? The other one was due to be paid at the end of December and therefore I would pay it at the end of December, as i would have been paid then and wouldnt be putting myself in a bad financial situation. Turns out i didnt need to, she did it for me by taking the money anyway. That in itself is a breach of contract - she has taken money from my bank account without my authorisation!

I have pinpointed everything down to the finest detail, the errors are with Orange. I was sat with the lady at Phones4u whilst she was setting my Direct debit up with orange over the phone - she must have repeated herself 6 times telling her the amount it should be and they still got it for the wrong amount and then the Orange rep told her it would come out on the 20th of each month and my bill said it would come out on the 9th so obviously this is where it all began.

Allegations they have ignored include taking money from my account unlawfully (they have admitted they did this on several occasions over the phone, one rep actually saying "the person who did this is an idiot and this is just a massive mess"), lying to me on several occasions, chasing me for a bill which has not been generated (this happened last month), blocking my online account and stating i owed money when i did not. that is not an exhaustive list. Either way, under the Supply of Goods and Services Act they havent performed their contract with skill and care which they have a duty to do.

"

• Because of some errors they failed to set up the DD. Errors do happen. They admitted their error, did not blame you and didn't penalise you for the missed payments. They never admitted their error regarding the direct debit and they failed to set this up a total of FOUR TIMES. and they DID blame me, last month when I spoke to the orange rep dealing with my case he said "you cancelled your direct debit" and that was because Orange had told me to! They said i had to cancel it and then they would re-set it up for the correct date and amount. I got a transcription of this telephone conversation.
• Instead of paying this debt over a phone, that was the only correct action, you decided to pay only part and to dispute the other part (why?) and to add extra mess to already complicated situation. I don't see any grounds for 'cancelling' the bill and I guess it was some misunderstanding between you and Orange. As I said above, they took money from my account and caused me to be in a financially dire situation where I couldnt even get to work. An "Orange error" meant that they had already applied the amount to the bill so couldnt simply remove the amount earmarked to come out of my bank account. They said this shouldnt have been done but because it had I had to go through the whole refund process. which they failed to process 3 times.
• You had every opportunity to pay the full amount, but decided not to. They quite rightly reported the late payment to the CRA, then blocked your account. The amount they were telling me to pay was an amount they had told me they had written off (due to the mess they had caused in the first place). Their bills were such a jumbled mess that I didnt know what I was paying for and they knew this which is why I had to get my solicitor involved. They failed to provide me with a breakdown of my bill on several occasions when all I actually wanted to do was pay it but just make sure it was the right amount. They obviously agree with me that it was disputed because they have taken the late payment mark off my credit account so they quite wrongly did that actually.

I can be misunderstanding something, but I don't see how errors with setting the DD and charging erroneously extra £5 constitute a breach of contract, but your solicitor probably knows better. "


I came on here asking for advice and you have basically picked and twisted my story to tell me that I am apparently to blame, when all I really wanted to know is what everyone else would do in my situation! Thanks for your post anyway.

mayforher_2

gregpot2000 wrote: »

The way I read it, is that they wanted payment for the 1st bill (fair enough), but also requested money for the 2nd bill that had only just been generated.

With all mobile contracts I have ever had, the payment date is always a couple of weeks after the bill is generated, so the money wasn't actually due, I believe there is actually some legislation on this, and they need to do it to give you chance to raise a dispute with them before any money is taken from your account.

OP, funnily enough I have had the exact same problem with a contract taken out with Phones 4 U in October. My contract was an upgrade and I am with O2, they took details for my new bank account when I signed, but they never processed it so O2 still tried to take the money out of my old account that had no money in, this led to me getting a £10 bank charge.

Even though I'll admit it even I don't believe it was O2s fault, they were very good about it, and when I sent the bank statement showing the charges they credited it to my account, although I guess this could be because it was such a low amount to them it wasn't worth them arguing about.

Yeh I guess thats the difference between O2 and Orange - not a single Orange representative knew anything when I called them, they kept saying "I have processed a refund and the money will be back in your account in 24 hours" and every time I called back to say "I dont have the money back in my account" they said "no refund was processed". A long string of !!!! ups!

Yep you're right, the money for the December bill that they were chasing wasnt due until 15 days later.

Basically after everything that is happened I think I shoudl be entitled to be let out of my contract. My solicitor knows after 4 letters so far they havent responded to the allegations so it;s going to be a battle. He just asked for my instructions and I dont know whether to fight it even though i know i'm in the right, or just to let it go.

gjchester

mayforher wrote: »

I came on here asking for advice and you have basically picked and twisted my story to tell me that I am apparently to blame, when all I really wanted to know is what everyone else would do in my situation! Thanks for your post anyway.

Grumbler and I were just trying to understand your situation. Your initial post is hard to read and throws up some ambiguties.

Before you do anything sit down and write the whole thing out in a chronological order. Be calm, and do not get emotional (easier said than done) so it's a clear timeline. Be clear in your words, THEY in your text could be Orange or P4U, use the full company name so it's clearer.

You originally said it was your first bill which, depending on the billing cycle and when you start the contract, can be twice the normal bill, and now you say it was Novembers bill. You also said you didn't pay the 2nd bill, is that this November bill or something else. You also said decembers bill would be paid by direct debit. If Orange chose not to take Nov's bill on the DD date (due to setup issues), then is the amount of money taken simply the two bills (nov & Dec) added together and being paid in one go? Are there months other bills that have been missed?

A Direct debit gives the company authorisation to take a variable amount of money from your account on a variable day to settle a bill. You HAVE authorised them to take the money by setting up the Direct Debit and so Orange did that. You can request a date a DD comes out but you cannot force it to be that day and they do often move due to weekends and bank holidays.

There are two problems I see as the non payment mark has been cleared and please bear with me here, this may sound like I'm getting at you but I'm not trying to.

One is your financial situation, If your account is so low you cannot cope with an extra £100 or so coming out on the wrong side of payday, you need to consider your finances carefully. I'm not going to lecture you but if it's that easy to go overdrawn you MUST try and build a safety cushion. It may be difficult but it will help save you from overdrawn fees or unable to pay for something essensial.

The second is the DD details. If you have the transcript you should be able to send it back to Orange and get them to deal with it. I'd strongly suggest you stop phoning them and write using registered post, so any response is clear and in writing.

You may also want to try the Executive office [EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"]executive[/EMAIL][EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"].office@orange.co.uk[/EMAIL] It won't get to a "real" Executive but they should be able to resolve this quickly.

mayforher wrote: »

Basically after everything that is happened I think I shoudl be entitled to be let out of my contract. My solicitor knows after 4 letters so far they havent responded to the allegations so it;s going to be a battle. He just asked for my instructions and I dont know whether to fight it even though i know i'm in the right, or just to let it go.

What you think is irrelevent, it's what the facts are that matters. This does seem like a mistake on Oranges part, they are trying to resolve it and whilst they may offer somethign for goodwill they are unlikely to release you from the contract.

Your soliciter should be advising you if it IS or IS NOT a breech of contract, and you base your choice on that, thats what you pay him for. Most solicitors charge ona time and per letter basis so you need to consider that will be costing you too. If you went to court you would most likely use the small claims track, and they will not normally allow soliciters fees to be awarded if you win. You need to consider even if you win it may cost you a lot more overall.

niktheguru

Dear Mayforher,

I do really sympathise with your situation. Sounds like you've been through hell and back.
I've been with orange for 7-8 years now and have had a nearly faultless service from them. I guess you must be unlucky. I do agree though that it really depends on who you speak to in customer service. Some people are excellent, others are complete muppets. The phillipine call centre can be very dodgy too (i.e. very courteous and all but take forever to get anything done)

It sounds like you have been through all the right channels. If I was in your situation, after the first 2-3 times of the direct debit not being sorted and you being charged I would get in touch with the executive office (details in a post above). They will take ownership of your issue and try and sort it out as quickly as possible. If you just deal with call centre staff nobody really takes ownership so the onus is on you to chase them all the time. Orange record all calls so they can easily go back to a conversation and hear someone misselling you something so you should be ok.

Best of luck with solving everything, i hope it all resolves. Orange is a great network otherwise (and i've been with most of them in the past) so i hope the remainder of your contract goes ok!

grumbler

gjchester wrote: »

A Direct debit gives the company authorisation to take a variable amount of money from your account on a variable day to settle a bill. You HAVE authorised them to take the money by setting up the Direct Debit and so Orange did that.

This requires some clarification.
The company is authorised to take a predictable amount of money, that the customer has to be informed about in advance, not any variable amount.
And it is a certain day that the customer has to be informed about, not any variable day.

mayforher_2

grumbler wrote: »

This requires some clarification.
The company is authorised to take a predictable amount of money, that the customer has to be informed about in advance, not any variable amount.
And it is a certain day that the customer has to be informed about, not any variable day.

They took money without my authorisation because on the phone call I only authorised them to take the amount for the Novembers bill and not the amount for the December bill. If the Direct Debit had been set up in the first place, I wouldnt have had to call them to make payment. I authorised them to take my bill via direct debit on the 23 of each month, they didnt set this up, they then send me a letter the day after the Direct Debit was DUE to come out saying I owed them for November and December even though the December bill had only just been generated. I did not have to pay them the December bill and specifically told them that I was not paying the December bill and the lady at Orange assured me that it would come out on 23 December by Direct Debit, and then proceeded to take it out of my account. Without asking me, without my authority.

mayforher_2

gjchester wrote: »

Grumbler and I were just trying to understand your situation. Your initial post is hard to read and throws up some ambiguties.

Before you do anything sit down and write the whole thing out in a chronological order. Be calm, and do not get emotional (easier said than done) so it's a clear timeline. Be clear in your words, THEY in your text could be Orange or P4U, use the full company name so it's clearer.

You originally said it was your first bill which, depending on the billing cycle and when you start the contract, can be twice the normal bill, and now you say it was Novembers bill. You also said you didn't pay the 2nd bill, is that this November bill or something else. You also said decembers bill would be paid by direct debit. If Orange chose not to take Nov's bill on the DD date (due to setup issues), then is the amount of money taken simply the two bills (nov & Dec) added together and being paid in one go? Are there months other bills that have been missed?

A Direct debit gives the company authorisation to take a variable amount of money from your account on a variable day to settle a bill. You HAVE authorised them to take the money by setting up the Direct Debit and so Orange did that. You can request a date a DD comes out but you cannot force it to be that day and they do often move due to weekends and bank holidays.

There are two problems I see as the non payment mark has been cleared and please bear with me here, this may sound like I'm getting at you but I'm not trying to.

One is your financial situation, If your account is so low you cannot cope with an extra £100 or so coming out on the wrong side of payday, you need to consider your finances carefully. I'm not going to lecture you but if it's that easy to go overdrawn you MUST try and build a safety cushion. It may be difficult but it will help save you from overdrawn fees or unable to pay for something essensial.

The second is the DD details. If you have the transcript you should be able to send it back to Orange and get them to deal with it. I'd strongly suggest you stop phoning them and write using registered post, so any response is clear and in writing.

You may also want to try the Executive office [EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"]executive[/EMAIL][EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"].office@orange.co.uk[/EMAIL] It won't get to a "real" Executive but they should be able to resolve this quickly.



What you think is irrelevent, it's what the facts are that matters. This does seem like a mistake on Oranges part, they are trying to resolve it and whilst they may offer somethign for goodwill they are unlikely to release you from the contract.

Your soliciter should be advising you if it IS or IS NOT a breech of contract, and you base your choice on that, thats what you pay him for. Most solicitors charge ona time and per letter basis so you need to consider that will be costing you too. If you went to court you would most likely use the small claims track, and they will not normally allow soliciters fees to be awarded if you win. You need to consider even if you win it may cost you a lot more overall.

Ok sorry, the reason I didnt put everything in my first post was because its a hell of a long story, and I'm not necessarily asking you to deal with it and find abmiguities, as I have already done that myself and with my solicitor, I was merely asking for your opinion on what you would do going forward, although I appreciate your replies nonetheless.

I have sat down and put everything in chronological order, and when I said first and second bill, I was referring to November and December, November being first and December being second (not bills in total, just in relation to those two bills). I know my first ever bill can be higher, that is not in dispute at all. I paid my first ever bill over the phone though because the Direct Debit said on my bill it was for the 9th and Orange had told Phones4u that it would be the 23rd (I was sat with the woman at Phones4u, she made no errors whatsoever and was merely relaying what the person on the other end of the phone was saying to them).

Regarding my financial position, please see DFW thread, I know what my financial position is but the fact is that they shouldnt have taken that money and it put me in an awful financial position. I budget my money every month and i hadnt budgeted for the extra bill to come out, therefore I was overdrawn over my overdraft. Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing but I am trying to resolve this issue in DFW.

I havent phoned Orange myself since December, everything has been dealt with in writing by the correspondence department but I will try and send all correspondence to them and see if that gets me anywhere. My solicitor has advised me that they have technically not breached the contract Orange's terms and conditions are so ridiculous that they actually say the term "service" only relates to Network coverage and nothing else. However, under the Supply of Goods and Services Act I would have to disagree as they have not performed their skill and duty with care at all. and have taken money from my account without my authority. and on several occasions have lied to me about the status of my account.

Also legal fees are no issue, I work at a solicitors firm and it is not costing me thank god! I was wondering if going through the ADR process would be more beneficial as I dont really want to take up much more of my solicitors time, especially as I'm not paying him but also Orange suggest going down this route on their website. I had luck with an ADR regarding the Post Office HOme phone and broadband once when i moved out and cancelled my account and they continued billing me for 6 months despite me ringing them with every bill and explaining that I dont live there and cancelled. Slightly different situation here though in that I want to be released from my contract. Might also go to Phones4u and see what they say/can do?

Thanks for your reply