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"poverty mentality"

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  • Hermia
    Hermia Posts: 4,473 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I do tip in restaurants and at the barbers but it makes me wonder why in that case we don't tip supermarket check out staff or the man who tears your ticket at the cinema, or any other minimum wage employees...

    I have never understood this either. A friend worked as a waitress and then in a department store (both minimum wage). She said she would get tipped just for putting some plates on a table in the restaurant. In the department store she could easily spend half an hour with one customer running back and forth to the stockrooms getting endless pairs of shoes. But no tip!
  • lostinrates
    lostinrates Posts: 55,283 Forumite
    I've been Money Tipped!
    Derivative wrote: »
    I

    I can see that perhaps some of the choices I make such as not owning a car, a TV, a smartphone, and so on are not ideal for all. But, though it's not all black and white, and I lay on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to frugality, I view the alternative - destitution - as a terrifying prospect. Having the savings to last for years between periods of employment, to me, is the ultimate freedom, and most of that comes from the simple fact that I spend little on wants.

    (Note that this is all disregarding real life changing events such as permanent disability, which of course would result in real worry, and I have the biggest of sympathies for those who get caught out this way.)
    You know your circumstances better than any one else, but i think one of your wants exmplified what the op meant by poverty mentailty. For some people, not all but some, not having a smart phone could contribute to a poverty trap. E.g. I started a small business last year...i am aware i have missed business from not keeping my ohone on me and not responding to emails quickly enough because i am out. A smart phone would solve that problem. My dh works internationally and a short tipme a go his job looked dicey. His smart ohone was allowing him to talk and be available to talk to international employers where ever he happened to be, and keep many pots on the fire while still doing his current job.

    Now while it would be cheaper, and is cheaper, for me not to have a smart ohone it would be more profitable, potentially for me to have one.

    I haven't decided yet, and probably will not opt to have one, but i am not ready for my business to expand really so will opt for no. It would also be easy tontake the choice to cobble a long as i am but wanting the busieness to grow, or stop doing other stuff, which for a business rhe size opf mine would be ridiculous. the latter choicesto me would be povity mentailty as impacted by frugality as indicated in op. not having a smart phone when it would not benefit you financially or in your lifestyle but just because younwant one is not to my mind poverty mentality.
  • Derivative
    Derivative Posts: 1,698 Forumite
    You know your circumstances better than any one else, but i think one of your wants exmplified what the op meant by poverty mentailty. For some people, not all but some, not having a smart phone could contribute to a poverty trap. E.g. I started a small business last year...i am aware i have missed business from not keeping my ohone on me and not responding to emails quickly enough because i am out. A smart phone would solve that problem. My dh works internationally and a short tipme a go his job looked dicey. His smart ohone was allowing him to talk and be available to talk to international employers where ever he happened to be, and keep many pots on the fire while still doing his current job.

    Now while it would be cheaper, and is cheaper, for me not to have a smart ohone it would be more profitable, potentially for me to have one.

    I haven't decided yet, and probably will not opt to have one, but i am not ready for my business to expand really so will opt for no. It would also be easy tontake the choice to cobble a long as i am but wanting the busieness to grow, or stop doing other stuff, which for a business rhe size opf mine would be ridiculous. the latter choicesto me would be povity mentailty as impacted by frugality as indicated in op. not having a smart phone when it would not benefit you financially or in your lifestyle but just because younwant one is not to my mind poverty mentality.

    A very informative post - actually the situation you describe is rather close to my own. I do tend to think about the long term implications rather than the up front cost when making purchasing decisions.

    On the smart phone, my own decision was whether or not I'd actually save money by having one - often I'd be in a store and would look up items on the Internet, find that they are cheaper on Amazon or similar, and thus having the phone saved me the difference.

    However, in the end I decided that actually, a lot of the items I was looking up - I didn't even need in the first place. On eradicating some of the more useless ones and gradually transitioning to those that are more educational (nonfiction books, newspapers, healthier food, etc) the price savings became nonexistent/negligible.

    Another example, though contrived, would be spending on social situations. Short term, it saves a tenner if you skip out on going to a restaurant with some new acquaintances. Long term, one of the people you didn't get to know so well could have put you in a better situation - a great friendship, a business partner, even just a lift to and from work.

    So it's all a balance in the end. I cut out all fast food and alcohol, but have an exception for social events, for example. Best of both worlds - the obvious point being that if you spend less unnecessarily, you have more to spend on potentially advantageous things.

    I think that a good mindset to have is that spending money is a good thing - but it should be spent wisely. A television or a video games console, while good fun, is a liability, a drain on both your wallet and your time unless used sparingly. A car when you need it for commuting is invaluable - when you don't, it's a complete money pit.
    Said Aristippus, “If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.”
    Said Diogenes, “Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.”[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
  • lostinrates
    lostinrates Posts: 55,283 Forumite
    I've been Money Tipped!
    Derivative wrote: »
    A very informative post - actually the situation you describe is rather close to my own. I do tend to think about the long term implications rather than the up front cost when making purchasing decisions.

    On the smart phone, my own decision was whether or not I'd actually save money by having one - often I'd be in a store and would look up items on the Internet, find that they are cheaper on Amazon or similar, and thus having the phone saved me the difference.

    However, in the end I decided that actually, a lot of the items I was looking up - I didn't even need in the first place. On eradicating some of the more useless ones and gradually transitioning to those that are more educational (nonfiction books, newspapers, healthier food, etc) the price savings became nonexistent/negligible.

    Another example, though contrived, would be spending on social situations. Short term, it saves a tenner if you skip out on going to a restaurant with some new acquaintances. Long term, one of the people you didn't get to know so well could have put you in a better situation - a great friendship, a business partner, even just a lift to and from work.

    So it's all a balance in the end. I cut out all fast food and alcohol, but have an exception for social events, for example. Best of both worlds - the obvious point being that if you spend less unnecessarily, you have more to spend on potentially advantageous things.

    I think that a good mindset to have is that spending money is a good thing - but it should be spent wisely. A television or a video games console, while good fun, is a liability, a drain on both your wallet and your time unless used sparingly. A car when you need it for commuting is invaluable - when you don't, it's a complete money pit.

    Yes, i pretty much agree with all that. :)
  • bearcub
    bearcub Posts: 1,023 Forumite
    I can see your point of view, derivative. As I say, I've not been in that situation, but our daughter has. She lost two jobs in quick succession - one because she realised for whom she was working was breaking the law, and the second when the company made cuts in staff. She would not ask for benefits, and we helped her for a while, as did her bf, so she could pay her rent. Sadly, because she's suffered with bulimia, it was all too easy for her to cut back by not eating - anything but lose her home. But eventually the employment agency suggested that she went to the dhs (or whatever). The first payment came through - just as she got another job. She didn't have a tv, but had to have a car because public transport is negligible in the area and being in the hospitality trade, she would be expected to working pretty unsociable hours. She got there, though, and refused to be 'beaten down'. :)
  • Molly41
    Molly41 Posts: 4,919 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Interesting to see that this thread has run and run.

    Having just seen the BBC news regarding Afghanistan and the children who are dying of malnutrition. Perhaps that is the true definition of Poverty Mentality?
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over and through me. When it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    When the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
  • Derivative
    Derivative Posts: 1,698 Forumite
    Molly41 wrote: »
    Interesting to see that this thread has run and run.

    Having just seen the BBC news regarding Afghanistan and the children who are dying of malnutrition. Perhaps that is the true definition of Poverty Mentality?

    I don't think that those struggling to feed themselves day to day have much concern for philosophical quandaries.

    But yes, it is true that all poverty in the UK pales in comparison to most of the rest of the world (even the US).

    I feel we need another word here, to distinguish between the 'relative' poverty of consuming less than your peers, and the 'absolute' poverty of struggling to source the basic necessities of life.
    Said Aristippus, “If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.”
    Said Diogenes, “Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.”[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
  • debtfreenow
    debtfreenow Posts: 44 Forumite
    edited 18 February 2012 at 9:11AM
    Perhaps "comparative poverty" might be the best term for "poor in comparison with other members of the same Society"?

    I remember that as one of the topics covered when I decided to study Sociology out of interest. The teacher explained that there is poverty on the one hand (ie not enough to eat/not having a proper 'roof over the head') and "relative poverty" on the other hand (ie when comparing the person concerned to other members of their OWN Society).

    My own personal view is that a certain level of various things is necessary in order to Have A Life (ie health/money/freedom). Above that level it's called Having A Life. Beneath that level (ie because there isn't enough of health and/or money and/or freedom) is "Just Existing".

    Maybe "dirt poor" would be a good term for absolute poverty? As in, anyone who is "dirt poor" has to spend their time looking at "dirt", that is always working/scrimping/working/scrimping (rather than being in a position to "look at the skies"/think/daydream/etc) and maybe even has to literally eat "dirt" (witness poor people in some countries literally making mudcakes to eat). Perhaps we could then say "dirt poor" for absolute poverty (which would mean that someone literally didn't have enough money to have a healthy diet/be warm in their own home/etc) and "sky poor" (meaning the person has enough to Exist, but no leeway of time/money left available for Having A Life).?
  • donny-gal
    donny-gal Posts: 4,661 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Just a minute here, are we not confusing OS with being "hard up". OS isn't necessarily doing without things, more cooking from scratch, providing a family with food where you know what is in it, and no awful additives in everything, and not living on Take-aways. Looking for a bargain, not just picking up the first thing you see. Making clothes, if you want to, enjoy doing it, knitting, crocheting the same. Some may keep hens so they have fresh eggs, and make a little on the side too.

    It depends of where you have arrived at OS from, if you have lived beyond your means, or your circumstances have changed and you now cannot do as you did, then you are using OS to reduce your costs to help you either live within your means or maybe even reduce your debt. If your electricity/gas bills are causing you sleepless nights, then maybe extra clothing and or a blanket on your knees at night is something you can do to reduce the costs. Do you want to pay all your salaries to the utility companies?

    I do many things OS, certainly in food preparation, and shop at Lidl/Aldi, because I prefer their produce their smaller shops and ease of shopping there. I will not pay £50 for something I can buy at £45. As a child my mother made some of my clothes, involving me so yes I can (though don't) do the same, together with the knitting and crocheting, which I do enjoy. Some would be given to me from cousins as they were older, but I did have new too.

    OS and meanness are not necessarily together, if you have money to spare after you have paid all your bills, and have something put away for the emergencies of life, then the spare can be spent or saved as you wish, but I would rather have the option of something I want to do or have, then give extra amounts to supermarkets and utility companies, by being thoughtless.

    Some of us older ones, have almost always been OS in some things, it was the way we were brought up, and have done it regardless. Some were not shown it as children so to them it is something unique and "new".

    Being "careful" (the Yorkshire way of saying it) is not being poor or mean, but just "usin tha' 'ed". ;) DG
    Member #8 of the SKI-ers Club
    Why is it I have less time now I am retired then when I worked?
  • HariboJunkie
    HariboJunkie Posts: 7,740 Forumite
    edited 18 February 2012 at 9:54AM
    The concepts of absolute and relative poverty, while valid, are inherently flawed though, particularly the latter. It will always be subject to personal opinion as to what constitutes either.

    That opinion won't just vary between the standards of living poor and rich countries either. It will vary from neighbour to neighbour in each of those countries too.

    A peron may look very poor to us (not quite at the eating mud pie stage) but very poor nonethless, but they may be much, much happier than their discontented, relatively poor neighbour. Some people have the wisdom to live a simple life on little money but are richer in more ways than many financially wealthy people will ever know.

    Equally when you take into account the fact that poverty goes hand in hand with social exclusion and you recognise the problems that go with that in our own country, relative poverty becomes an important issue to tackle.

    OS for me is in no way connected to a poverty mentality. I get more for my money by shopping around. Why wouldn't I? Spending less on anything means I have more money in the pot for other things. Whether those things are strictly necessary or not is no one's business but my own as the money is earned and tax is paid on it.:)
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