"poverty mentality"

bearcub

Derivative wrote: »

Tipping is a 'social norm' - it's something that is simply culturally accepted.

There is no logical reason why a waiter should be given donations above and beyond their wage, when people who have arguably harder jobs don't.

Ah right, I thought you meant that being a waiter was a social norm. Couldn't see why or how, although it's obviously not unusual.

Mistral001

The following is from the Wikitravel site for those who are interested :

Tipping throughout the UK is usually expected at restaurants (except self-service establishments), but not always given. It is less usual to tip in caf!s and coffee shops. Many restaurants will allow tips to be added to a credit card bill, but it is generally considered better to leave cash at the table. The reason for this is that cash is deemed to have been given to the waiting staff directly, whilst credit card payments and cheques are legally payable to the restaurant. While a tip given by credit card or cheque will almost always be passed on to the waiting staff, it is legal for restaurants to pay their staff less than the minimum wage if the amount given in tips via the restaurant management augments their wages to the level of the minimum wage.

In many table-service restaurants - and 'gastro pubs' - a 'service charge' is added to the bill, usually (but not always) when the party exceeds a certain size e.g. six, in which case there is no expectation to tip further. It's worth checking the menu when ordering, for information on service charges.

It is a legal requirement to post prices including any taxes and other charges. Additional service charges at restaurants are unusual. Where these occur, it is legal to refuse to pay the service charge but people only tend to do this if they believe the service was inadequate.

In some establishments, tips are kept individually by the waiter or waitress, whereas in others they may be pooled and divided amongst all the staff (a 'tronc'). In other instances, tips may be set aside for some other purpose for the benefit of the staff, such as to fund a staff party or trip.

The full text can be found at:

http://wikitravel.org/en/Tipping

Mistral001

I think you go through phases when money gets tight. Mine are as follows and the last one I think could be a "poverty mentality"

1. The complaining stage. Money has reduced because of no fault of your own and it is "society" which is to blame.

2. The determine- to-do-something-about-it phase. A strategy is developed of cutting back everywhere and looking into some money-making ideas like doing surveys and looking around the house for things to sell on ebay etc.

3. The novelty phase where saving becomes like a game where the score is kept by how much you save.

4. The moneysaving-evangelistic phase where you throw youself into saving money and discuss it friends and relatives (and here) and even sometimes start to preach about it to them and how much "people" waste etc.

5. The getting-used-to-it phase. It is no longer a novelty. Every spare item is sold on ebay. No one seems to wants to know about your money saving tips anymore. You suspect that people actually think you are a bit mean.

6. The adjusting-to-poverty phase. It is no longer a game. You are poor. The banks treat you like you are poor. Strangers treat you like you are poor. When you see beggars on the street you look at them differently as you can identify with them. You feel like giving money to them but hold back as they are standing outside a pub.

7. A phase where I think that maybe I am getting just too used too this poverty and it is becoming a habit. You start to think that this could be a poverty mentality phase?

culpepper

I think for some,the poverty mentality is more about losing one's rights or not thinking they are entitled to any in the first place.
For my parents it was anyway.
My mother would almost never complain about being treated badly or disrespectfully because she felt she didn't deserve to be treated well.
My father would be servile in front of authority or anyone who spoke well or wore a uniform.
They both had a 'big brother is watching' attitude.

bearcub

That's very sad, culpepper. My parents, like a lot of others just after the war, had very little money, and lived with my paternal GF in his rented house. I can remember (although it didn't strike me until later) Mum going without food to make sure that Dad and we kids had enough to eat. As a result, she always has to take food supplements to strengthen her bones. Between them, they worked very hard to better themselves, and Dad left Mum comfortable financially when he died. It makes me so :mad: when I see Mum having to fill out a tax form every year (she's now 83), and being taxed on the savings she and Dad managed to get together, and the small pension she gets. Why, when they pulled themselves out of near-poverty and paid taxes all their working lives?

Twiglet0309

My Father died in 1986 after a long illness during which he stayed at home with Mum nursing him. My Mum is disabled following a serious illness in 2006. I now live with her as her carer. Both my parents worked hard all their lives. When it came time for Mum to come home from hospital, given that she had both lower legs amputated, a lot of adaptations were required for her to return to her own house. IF my parents had simply rented all their lives or lived off the state, these adaptations would have been completed free of charge prior to her release from hospital. As it was, we had to fight for over 3 years just to get a ramp for the front door and a downstairs toilet.
Heaven forbid anything happens to Mum and she has to go into care because her house will have to be sold to pay for the costs leaving me homeless and Mum penniless.
We now live on Mums pension and my Carers allowance. We watch the pennys but I dont believe we have a "poverty" mentality, more a "reality" mentality. We dont spend what we dont have and if we want something then we save towards it.

bearcub

There's something deeply wrong with our society when we (ie society) can't look after our older folk who've worked hard all their lives, isn't there?

Derivative

Mistral001 wrote: »

I think you go through phases when money gets tight. Mine are as follows and the last one I think could be a "poverty mentality"

1. The complaining stage. Money has reduced because of no fault of your own and it is "society" which is to blame.

2. The determine- to-do-something-about-it phase. A strategy is developed of cutting back everywhere and looking into some money-making ideas like doing surveys and looking around the house for things to sell on ebay etc.

3. The novelty phase where saving becomes like a game where the score is kept by how much you save.

4. The moneysaving-evangelistic phase where you throw youself into saving money and discuss it friends and relatives (and here) and even sometimes start to preach about it to them and how much "people" waste etc.

5. The getting-used-to-it phase. It is no longer a novelty. Every spare item is sold on ebay. No one seems to wants to know about your money saving tips anymore. You suspect that people actually think you are a bit mean.

6. The adjusting-to-poverty phase. It is no longer a game. You are poor. The banks treat you like you are poor. Strangers treat you like you are poor. When you see beggars on the street you look at them differently as you can identify with them. You feel like giving money to them but hold back as they are standing outside a pub.

7. A phase where I think that maybe I am getting just too used too this poverty and it is becoming a habit. You start to think that this could be a poverty mentality phase?

Surprised by this.

Up until point 4 it sounds like someone who is actually just being frugal and is actually on their way to becoming very wealthy...

bearcub

I suppose it depends, derivative, on just how long someone has to cope with next to no money, and on their personality. When you constantly have to fight for anything, especially if you have youngsters, it must be very hard to keep thinking 'one day it'll be better'. I've never been in that situation - the nearest we came was when we'd just got our first mortgage. We'd paid out all our savings, and just had the money in our purse/wallet, and the promise of next month's salary. A lot of people don't have the last to look forward to.

Derivative

bearcub wrote: »

I suppose it depends, derivative, on just how long someone has to cope with next to no money, and on their personality. When you constantly have to fight for anything, especially if you have youngsters, it must be very hard to keep thinking 'one day it'll be better'. I've never been in that situation - the nearest we came was when we'd just got our first mortgage. We'd paid out all our savings, and just had the money in our purse/wallet, and the promise of next month's salary. A lot of people don't have the last to look forward to.

I suppose I misread the first part - the original poster mentioned a 'poverty mentality' as being frugal when unnecessary, i.e. buying value food when you can afford the more expensive stuff.

I do personally have trouble with relating to the "no money situation".

I live on about £7-8k a year at present. Basically the equivalent of Jobseeker's Allowance after rent and CT is paid. This means that I can save high amounts of my income.

So you could say that I have a 'poverty mentality', as the OP states. I value money and I think that every £6 in my hand now, is an hour less labour I will have to provide in later life.

'Next to no money', to me, is a situation that seems very difficult to get into and far from my life, and I am by no means well off.

It seems to me that in order to avoid the 'no money' situation, all you need is a clear understanding of your personal finances, and the discipline to not spend everything. Without those, it's easy to fall into the trap. With them, it's as simple as knowing your income is X, and that you should spend less than X.

I can see that perhaps some of the choices I make such as not owning a car, a TV, a smartphone, and so on are not ideal for all. But, though it's not all black and white, and I lay on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to frugality, I view the alternative - destitution - as a terrifying prospect. Having the savings to last for years between periods of employment, to me, is the ultimate freedom, and most of that comes from the simple fact that I spend little on wants.

(Note that this is all disregarding real life changing events such as permanent disability, which of course would result in real worry, and I have the biggest of sympathies for those who get caught out this way.)