Greece...

ChiefGrasscutter

ggb1979 wrote: »

Tsprias hasn't got a leg to stand on. We all knew and he was told that if he forced a referendum then the offer was off the table. He had his chance and is clearly an inept negotiator. How exactly did he think he would strengthen his position by taking his country closer to the brink?

Because that would result in a total default of the Greek debt
In which case the German/French etc taxpayer/banks will get back nothing.
So yes he blows up Greece but he 'takes out' the Euro with him.

The snag is that he is left wing so he wants the Euro money as all socialist want - ie other people's money
If he was extreme right wing he would tell Europe to shove it - you all get nowt and we are going to start printing sort of thing

remorseless

Graham_Devon wrote: »

You need to get past this point.

Greece has never "asked" for bailouts.

'Asking', 'requesting', 'obtaining', 'accepting'...

My comments were about the war reparation argument. Accepting whatever bailout was thrown at them for whichever reason and then saying they shouldn't have to pay because of war reparation is wrong...

Graham_Devon

LOL it just get's better!

Emerging now that the €50bn of assets should be stored with KFW.

KFW is a German government owned bank. On the board are Wolfgang Schäuble and Sigmar Gabriel. You couldn't really make it up.

Secondly, Greece have said this €50bn of assets doesn't exist. The IMF appear to concur, stating that annual proceeds of privitisation amount to €500m per year.

However, the EU ministers say they "do not buy it or believe it" and therefore the option still exists.

So not only do Greece have to magically find this $50bn of assets (I'd assumed the EU had them laid out) when the IMF sustainability report syas there is just 1% of that to be had each year, they have to find them and pass law within 48 hours. Surely this is askign the impossible?

Theres now a hashtag trending on twitter #ThisIsACoup

The hashtag even gets a mention in Paul Krugman’s invective against the creditors:

“Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief.”

dktreesea

wotsthat wrote: »

Varoufakis and Tsipras both seemed to be detached from responsibilty for repayment of money lent in the last couple of years.

Seems a stretch to expect Germans therefore to accept responsibility for loans made in WWII to a regime which they've thorughly washed their hands of.

Didn't Germany default on those loans anyway?

Correct, so what's with their holier than thou attitude to Greece defaulting now?

dktreesea

remorseless wrote: »

60 years... that's almost a generation (of that time!) ago.
Germany paid back already. That issue is settled.

When will Greece move on and flourish on its own once again? The rest of the world have... Even the Jews have forgiven!

Previous bailouts were not obtained as a 'gift' or 'reparation to Greece'. They were loans.
Was Greece being deceitful asking for those bailouts? Then it deserves what is getting!

No chance. Germany defaulted on those "loans", more like thefts.

Generali

Interesting that Germany now wants to turn unsecured debt into secured debt.

IIRC, this website generally takes a pretty dim view of that as a solution to your debts.

vivatifosi

Generali wrote: »

Interesting that Germany now wants to turn unsecured debt into secured debt.

IIRC, this website generally takes a pretty dim view of that as a solution to your debts.

How do you secure debt on a national basis? If not paid, do the Germans get Rhodes or something?

wotsthat

dktreesea wrote: »

Correct, so what's with their holier than thou attitude to Greece defaulting now?

Who says there's a difference?

Germany decided they wouldn't accept their creditors terms any longer and walked away from their obligations. Greece can do the same and see what haircut they can negotiate and whilst they're doing that funds will flow in the form of humanitarian aid.

seven-day-weekend

dktreesea wrote: »

Correct, so what's with their holier than thou attitude to Greece defaulting now?

It's hardly the same. Germany had just been ravaged by war and an evil dictator.

wotsthat

vivatifosi wrote: »

How do you secure debt on a national basis? If not paid, do the Germans get Rhodes or something?

If Greece has €50bn of state assets that could be signed over to an external holder awaiting privatisation there's an increased chance they'll actually get privatised. That's why Tsipras isn't happy because it makes it (slightly) more difficult to agree to privatisations and renege later.

I doubt he'll accept this even though it's not much more than a paper promise.