Greece...

Kendall80

The increasingly right wing EU doesn't want a left wing government in Greece. It seems to think that unelected (by Greeks) EU officials have the right to change the government of Greece. So much for democracy.

CLAPTON

vivatifosi wrote: »

1. They are in the Eurozone - and as we know there is no mechanism for exit. I don't for one minute think Syriza is the right govt to get them out of this, but I do feel the fact that there isn't an exit mechanism means that, when a country is in as desperate state as Greece, it cannot be as nimble as other countries in taking control of its economy and getting it back on track.

2. They are in the EU, but are proof positive that the EU notion of all being in it together only goes so far.

The whole Greek situation, ultimately goes to the heart of questioning what the EU and the Euro are all about. There have been disagreements before, but I can't think of any on this scale. This does not apply to S E Asia or the other places because they were not sold the EU dream.

no one will send troops if Greeks leave the eurozone : Greece is only in a 'desperate ' state because it is in the eurozone (and of course their own endemic corruption and wish to have pensions and benefits they can't afford).

No different to many other countries.

If the greeks have been stupid enough to believe in something for nothing then the solution is to grow up.

they must leave euro today.

Mistermeaner

To be fair they've made a hash of it.

It's akin to your back insisting you have a job before agreeing to give you a mortgage.

I do t think it's a philosophical anti left wing approach but more to do with a complete loss of faith in tsiprias (spl) doing any of the things they said they would do in the past and then didnt. Credittors are looking for assurance - as is their right.

Perhaps the mistake in the past has been money was lent on trust that something useful and productive was being done with it.

It's not fair to criticise Germany and others for once having lent on trust, realised this errors and now looking for more certainty.

mwpt

vivatifosi wrote: »

1. They are in the Eurozone - and as we know there is no mechanism for exit. I don't for one minute think Syriza is the right govt to get them out of this, but I do feel the fact that there isn't an exit mechanism means that, when a country is in as desperate state as Greece, it cannot be as nimble as other countries in taking control of its economy and getting it back on track.

But why don't they simply stop making payments to their creditors and start printing their own currency? They don't have to formally exit the Eurozone to do this.

I understand that you're questioning the concept of the Eurozone solidarity but the above path is within Greek control, so pointless blaming others if they're not prepared to face up to reality and deal with their own problems.

antrobus

worldtraveller wrote: »

Goldman Sachs faces the prospect of potential legal action from Greece over the complex financial deals in 2001 that many blame for its subsequent debt crisis...

Every little helps.

Kendall80 wrote: »

The increasingly right wing EU doesn't want a left wing government in Greece. It seems to think that unelected (by Greeks) EU officials have the right to change the government of Greece. So much for democracy.

It's not "EU officials" that are making the decisions. The decisions will be made by the elected governments of the other 18 Eurozone governments.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I can't prove any of this....

Normal for Graham.:)

antrobus

Interesting background here;

Greece is a victim of its own cronyism and corruption
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11731242/Greece-is-a-victim-of-its-own-cronyism-and-corruption.html

Starting in the Eighties populist spending and cronyism became the norm for both main parties, PaSoK and the conservative New Democracy party, which followed Papandreou’s practices when it returned to power in the 1990s.....The New Democracy government of Kostas Karamanlis excelled in this mismanagement, appointed an estimated 150,000 civil servants...

The government of Syriza also resists reform, ostensibly because of hostility to “capitalism”, but in reality because most special interests have switched their allegiance to Syriza as the real anti-reform party and the vehicle of a new cronyism. Hence, Syriza has done nothing to regulate the media oligarchs, open up the economy, or introduce meritocracy in the civil service. It even refused to introduce a universal unemployment benefit by way of a “minimum guaranteed income” as proposed by the EU.

worldtraveller

Graham_Devon wrote: »

The meeting of the 28 EU leaders has now been cancelled.

Something is going on. But seems the heads of government will no longer get a say.

Now only the finance ministers of the EU will meet.

Aka, a deal won't be sorted out today! :rotfl:

remorseless

worldtraveller wrote: »

Aka, a deal won't be sorted out today! :rotfl:

Everyone should act as surprised as possible!!!!

It seems the same with the capital control in Greece meant to only last for few days and they were only meant to have few days with the current ELA, yet, 2 weeks later, still there!

Let me guess, next NEW absolute deadline is July 20, ECB payment? if that is missed like the IMF in June, that's it right?

The Bold and the Beautiful is still running since the 80's :eek: Greece maybe the same, even the FinMin are getting younger :A Lagarde is going to run out of outfits to wear!

BlondeHeadOn

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I can't prove any of this....

However, I have a feeling that no matter what Greece came up with in negotiations they would have been told it's not enough. We can kind of see this now. 2 weeks ago, there was no mention of Brussels taking over public adnministration...no talk of Greek assets being transferred to Germany.

It only appears to be now that theres just a fag paper seperating what the Greeks are willing to accept and what the Germans are willing to accept that Germany has ramped up it's demands. Of coruse, Greece are now further away from the deal offered again. They can't possibly catch up.

In truth, it appears it's not what the Greek government will offer that's the issue here. It's simply that the Greek government is the wrong flavour. We've had so many insults directed at them, and the video from the parliament the other day told us everything we need to know, with many in the EU clapping the insults hurled at Tspira's. The only negotiation I feel would be enough is the break up of the Syrzia government and the "correct" political figureheads being put in place....

It appears to be of of no coincidence that Germany insisted on the referendum taking place and refusing to look at the deal put forward by Syrzia last week. It also appears to be of no coincidence that since the referendum and the massive vote in favour of Syrzia, one of the terms of the bailout is that Brussels (Germany) runs public administration. IMO, Germany were simply waiting for Syrzia to fall apart in the referendum and it didn't happen. SO now we only have a deal if Germany runs public administration.

It may be an economic union, but it doesnt appear that economics are the highest agenda here. It's politics.

Greek people will suffer should they continue to vote the "wrong" government in....that, it appears, becomes clearer as every day passes. I'm assuming that the £50bn of assets transferred to Germany would be a "payment" for a debt write down in order that Germany get's its money - the saddest thing about it all is that Germany doesn't even need that money.

And how can a "greek EU exit for 5 years" suddenly be drawn up!? They are makign it up as they go along to suit.

^^^ I agree with this, and it was good to read such a clear account of what I have also been thinking. Thank you.


I am very depressed about the whole situation!

vivatifosi

mwpt wrote: »

I understand that you're questioning the concept of the Eurozone solidarity but the above path is within Greek control, so pointless blaming others if they're not prepared to face up to reality and deal with their own problems.

Yes, questioning Eurozone solidarity. Also there will be a sizeable minority scratching their heads, trying to keep their businesses afloat and just wanting the country to get on with it.

I don't feel sorry for Syriza, or for people who want something for nothing. But I do feel sorry for people who have done everything right, paid their taxes (yes I believe that they do exist) but their financial security has been totally screwed over.