Greece...

Graham_Devon

Well Tspiras accepted the bailout conditions from 2 weeks ago.

There are now new bailout conditions though and his acceptance to previous terms is no longer enough. The new deal has 2 key parts attached

1. Greece has to hand over £50bn worth of assets to Germany. Germany can then privatise them and sell them to cover any losses should Greece not pay the money back.

2. The Greek government will have to make way for an EU minister and EU Technocrat whom will essentially tell them what they can and can't do with their finances. Essentially means that it's pointless for Greeks to vote for a party as all parties will have their hands tied.

One of the most absurd things though is that there will be no debt write down. Both the EU and IMF have stated that the debt is not sustainable without a write down. Therefore, it's a certainty that this money will not be paid back in full.

So the question now is, what do these assets consist of? Why will Germany lend money to Greece in the full knowledge they won't get it back as, by their own admittance, it's unsustainable and unaffordable?

One would imagine the assets are assets to which Germany will be happy to privatise and keep for themselves?

Territory?

remorseless

Graham_Devon wrote: »

1. Greece has to hand over £50bn worth of assets to Germany. Germany can then privatise them and sell them to cover any losses should Greece not pay the money back.

I read that it was handing over to EZ Groups? Well it is fair, given that they have failed to implement previously agreed reform and missed IMF payments.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

2. The Greek government will have to make way for an EU minister and EU Technocrat whom will essentially tell them what they can and can't do with their finances. Essentially means that it's pointless for Greeks to vote for a party as all parties will have their hands tied.

if they keep running out of cash, seems fair. Seems like when individuals cannot manage their finance, rack huge debt, they appoint those company to manage their finance for them! Sad, but maybe needed!!!!

Graham_Devon wrote: »

One of the most absurd things though is that there will be no debt write down. Both the EU and IMF have stated that the debt is not sustainable without a write down. Therefore, it's a certainty that this money will not be paid back in full.

Yet, even IMF is not willing to write them off anything... it seems it's always going to be somebody else's problem!

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So the question now is, what do these assets consist of? Why will Germany lend money to Greece in the full knowledge they won't get it back as, by their own admittance, it's unsustainable and unaffordable?

One would imagine the assets are assets to which Germany will be happy to privatise and keep for themselves?

Territory?

Maybe they don't want to lend them anything anymore, but they have to play ball...

Mistermeaner

Tsprias hasn't got a leg to stand on. We all knew and he was told that if he forced a referendum then the offer was off the table. He had his chance and is clearly an inept negotiator. How exactly did he think he would strengthen his position by taking his country closer to the brink? Telling ignorant fools you will give them money if they vote for you is easy and I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but 60% of the Greek population is pretty darn ignorant for backing that tool.

dktreesea

remorseless wrote: »

if Greece did not need constant bailouts (3 times is a charm), Germany would not be lecturing nobody. They're not lecturing Lithuania or Slovakia or Croatia, they are not asking for bailouts.

What will it take for Greece to live within its mean so that other EZ countries do not get involved?

It's not the first bailout.
It's not the second bailout.
It's now a third.
When will it be the fourth?

Don't like the lecture? Act responsibly!

Would Greece be so poor now if they weren't left in tatters and starving after WWII? It's about time Germany owned up to its own history and repaid the "loans" it received from the countries in occupied during WWII. Why no reparations to Greece, in over 60 years?

InvestInPoker

News that Greece might be offered a "temporary time out from the euro of 5 years" coming though on CNBC. !!!!!! would that even be, seems just silly at this point.

dktreesea

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Well Tspiras accepted the bailout conditions from 2 weeks ago.

There are now new bailout conditions though and his acceptance to previous terms is no longer enough. The new deal has 2 key parts attached

1. Greece has to hand over £50bn worth of assets to Germany. Germany can then privatise them and sell them to cover any losses should Greece not pay the money back.

2. The Greek government will have to make way for an EU minister and EU Technocrat whom will essentially tell them what they can and can't do with their finances. Essentially means that it's pointless for Greeks to vote for a party as all parties will have their hands tied.

One of the most absurd things though is that there will be no debt write down. Both the EU and IMF have stated that the debt is not sustainable without a write down. Therefore, it's a certainty that this money will not be paid back in full.

So the question now is, what do these assets consist of? Why will Germany lend money to Greece in the full knowledge they won't get it back as, by their own admittance, it's unsustainable and unaffordable?

One would imagine the assets are assets to which Germany will be happy to privatise and keep for themselves?

Territory?

OMG. Yet more German theft from Greece! The war is long over. Let's not encourage the Germans to behave like Nazis yet again. Germany shouldn't be "lending" Greece anything. They should be repaying what they stole from Greece by way of forced loans all those years ago.

wotsthat

dktreesea wrote: »

Would Greece be so poor now if they weren't left in tatters and starving after WWII? It's about time Germany owned up to its own history and repaid the "loans" it received from the countries in occupied during WWII. Why no reparations to Greece, in over 60 years?

Varoufakis and Tsipras both seemed to be detached from responsibilty for repayment of money lent in the last couple of years.

Seems a stretch to expect Germans therefore to accept responsibility for loans made in WWII to a regime which they've thorughly washed their hands of.

Didn't Germany default on those loans anyway?

remorseless

dktreesea wrote: »

Would Greece be so poor now if they weren't left in tatters and starving after WWII? It's about time Germany owned up to its own history and repaid the "loans" it received from the countries in occupied during WWII. Why no reparations to Greece, in over 60 years?

60 years... that's almost a generation (of that time!) ago.
Germany paid back already. That issue is settled.

When will Greece move on and flourish on its own once again? The rest of the world have... Even the Jews have forgiven!

Previous bailouts were not obtained as a 'gift' or 'reparation to Greece'. They were loans.
Was Greece being deceitful asking for those bailouts? Then it deserves what is getting!

Graham_Devon

remorseless wrote: »

Was Greece being deceitful asking for those bailouts? Then it deserves what is getting!

You need to get past this point.

Greece has never "asked" for bailouts. All bailouts have been a mutual arrangement to suit both Greece (at the time), the Euro/EU and the banks.

Do you really think that the EU would stand to the side watching banks collapse in 2009 due to Greece not being able to pay? Watching contagion spread throughout the Euro countries? All the time waiting for Greece to "ask" for a bailout?

You keep stating that Greece asked for all this stuff. I'm not sure whether you really believe this, or simply don't know what was happening in 2009 and then again subsequently in 2012.

Even in 2012, many stated that the money being handed to Greece in tranches could never be repaid. That the calculations from the EU were wildly optimistic. Yet the EU steamrollered ahead anyway, insisting that greek debt to GDP would be 116% by 2020.

From 2012:

If the reform program is successful, Greece’s debt level by 2020 could be slightly lower than once expected, according to the latest projections, though it would still equal 116.5 percent of gross domestic product.

Many observers think that the weight of debt hanging over the Greek economy will make it impossible for the government to attain its goals and return the country to growth.

Yet confronted with the possibility of a disorderly default on Greece’s debt in the near future, European governments opted for a second bailout. The aid also gives European officials breathing room to try to shore up other vulnerable, and bigger, economies like Spain and Italy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/business/global/greece-gets-formal-approval-for-second-bailout.html?_r=0

This wasn't all about Greece. The EU needed to stop contagion, get a plan in place to reduce their exposure to the problems an EU default would cause.

They have been successful (so they say) on reducing the exposure, but contagion and fall out still remains a huge threat.

If this were simply about Greece "asking" for some money, they would have been cut off years ago.

Graham_Devon

The terms are much stiffer than those imposed by the creditors over the past five years. This, said the senior official, was payback for the emphatic no to the creditors’ terms delivered by the snap referendum that Tsipras staged a week ago.

“He was warned a yes vote would get better terms, that a no vote would be much harder,” said the senior official.

:shocked:

Payback!?