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Blue badge meant nothing

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Hi,
Yesterday afternoon (Sat 21st Jan) my hubby and I parked in Falmouth, in what we had thought to be a Council run car park. I have full DLA for mobility, with free tax disc, blue badge and clock. This was prominently displayed.

We shopped for around 35 minutes, returned to the car, didn't notice the plastic packet stuck to the windscreen until we were parked elsewhere, ten minutes later. It is a 'Parking Charge Notice', from a private company. They act on behalf of Falmouth Harbour Master, who own the quay. The ticket is issued for 'no ticket', displayed in the pay and display car park.

Thing is, we accept our mistake, in assuming no payment of a parking fee, hubby went down to the park later to check, and there is a proper sign saying that even blue badge holders should pay a fee. This is rare in Cornwall, we are used to public car parks being free to fully badged disabled folk.

The fine is £90 (!) reduced to £65 if paid up within 7 days of the ticket. I have been reading posts about these kind of charges, it is a little terrifying to ignore the thing! But, I have a question. The ticket as issued refers to our car, with Reg etc, time of issue, but does not have our name or address on it. Can the Security Company actually find out our address, if we simply ignore this?

Best case for us would be to pay nothing, but we do accept that we had not seen and read the notice. Last time we parked, it had been free. So, we might be up for paying something out of 'good will'.

Advice and lovely support please!
Debs
«134

Comments

  • taffy056
    taffy056 Posts: 4,895 Forumite
    It's a parking charge notice from a private company so it's not enforceable. So it can be ignored completely, technically they can take you to the small claims for their loss, probably about £2 maximum plus court costs, that is what they are entitled too. But they are trying to get you to pay a penalty in all but name, which they can't do because it's not legal.

    The registered keeper of the vehicle will get about 5-6 letters demanding money, and by increasing amounts, they are all part of the parcel of these shysters. They get the info from the dvla and will pester you, there is no independent appeals, there is no point contacting the company to appeal to their nature, they have none they just want money!


    The good news to you is that you came here first, read the sticky threads in this section, watch the videos from watchdog and educate yourself to this scam, and finally dont pay them anything at all, they will crawl back under their stone after those 5-6letters from them or their agents.
    Excel Parking, MET Parking, Combined Parking Solutions, VP Parking Solutions, ANPR PC Ltd, & Roxburghe Debt Collectors. What do they all have in common?
    They are all or have been suspended from accessing the DVLA database for gross misconduct!
    Do you really need to ask what kind of people run parking companies?
  • HO87
    HO87 Posts: 4,296 Forumite
    Let me guess? Was this Armtrac Security by any chance? And were you parked in the harbour?

    Armtrac are indeed a private company and have no authority to issue penalty tickets. What you have is in effect a speculative invoice raised on the basis that you breached the purported contract you entered into when you parked. Such invoices are intended for the issuer to be able to recover their reasonable losses but at £65 it is hardly reasonable and is clearly intended as a penalty - something that is specifically excluded by contract law.

    Have a good read around this forum and specifically read the "stickies". These will guide you as to your legal position. The best advice is to ignore anything and everything that comes through your door by way of threatening letters.

    Although Armtrac will want to suggest that they are merely collecting their reasonable losses they clearly didn't have that idea when they drew up this document with the Harbourmasters - Click Here (opens as a pdf). It very clearly demonstrates that the tickets are fully intended as penalties.
    My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016). :(

    For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com
  • Kite2010
    Kite2010 Posts: 4,308 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Home Insurance Hacker! Car Insurance Carver!
    The most the landowner can sue you for is the damages suffered by you not paying for a pay & display ticket, so if parking was £1 per hour you would owe £1.

    Even if you are blue-badge holders, check the wording on the signs as, you've found out, not all car-parks are free for blue-badge holders
  • TrickyWicky
    TrickyWicky Posts: 4,025 Forumite
    This is why as a disabled driver you must NEVER assume you have free parking anywhere you want. ALWAYS look for the signs. Yes they can get your details from the DVLA but my advice is as the above posters say.

    Just be aware that your badge only applies to publically owned roads and car parks and not private ones. Therefore you must ALWAYS check the signs otherwise you're going to end up in this situation again. The badge also has no legal meaning in supermarket car parks in case you didn't know, they provide their disabled spaces as a courtesy only.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,844 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 22 January 2012 at 9:21PM
    HO87 wrote: »
    Let me guess? Was this Armtrac Security by any chance? And were you parked in the harbour?

    Armtrac are indeed a private company and have no authority to issue penalty tickets. What you have is in effect a speculative invoice raised on the basis that you breached the purported contract you entered into when you parked. Such invoices are intended for the issuer to be able to recover their reasonable losses but at £65 it is hardly reasonable and is clearly intended as a penalty - something that is specifically excluded by contract law.

    Have a good read around this forum and specifically read the "stickies". These will guide you as to your legal position. The best advice is to ignore anything and everything that comes through your door by way of threatening letters.

    Although Armtrac will want to suggest that they are merely collecting their reasonable losses they clearly didn't have that idea when they drew up this document with the Harbourmasters - Click Here (opens as a pdf). It very clearly demonstrates that the tickets are fully intended as penalties.



    Brilliant link to cover the OP if Armtrac ever decided to try Court in this case. :T

    To choppersangel, you could send the £2 or whatever direct to the Harbourmaster, apologising for the oversight but NOT stating who was driving (just say summat like 'the car reg xxxx was parked and the signs were not seen...here's £2 to cover the parking fee sent in good faith from the registered keeper of the car, without prejudice and as a final offer, in the knowledge that any penalty is unenforceable.'). If you do that send it Recorded Delivery & keep the record of it being signed for.

    Seems a very reasonable thing to do and could have the desired effect - they may just call off Armtrac so you'd be spared their letters. I would NOT offer anything at all to Armtrac, do not contact them at all, do not think for a minute there's an appeals procedure (they lie). Don't let them or the Harbourmaster have any info at all about who was driving.

    Or you can just ignore the whole thing which is what we advise everyone on here to do. Read the sticky threads at the top of the sub-forum, watch the Watchdog video, ignore all the threatogram letters as shown in pics in our top sticky. It's easy to ignore these scams but as Armtrac have a history of the odd Court case (which they lose) in your situation you may like to make sure you can show you have acted completely reasonably from the outset.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • HO87, no actually, it's a bunch called A S Parking, trading name for Athens Security Services, based in St Columb. But all same applies, we parked at the back of Trago - to shop in there - and simply didn't check. I can't find when the car park went private, we have definitely parked free there in the last year. Hey ho, I'm feeling braver about ignoring the thing now! Many thanks for your reply.
  • Thanks TrickyWicky. This is the first time since I got my badge, just over a year ago, that I haven't checked a parking sign. We have used the car park in question several times during the year, it used to be Council, we don't know when it went private. Yes it was remiss, yes we will check every time from now on!
  • HO87
    HO87 Posts: 4,296 Forumite
    edited 23 January 2012 at 12:39AM
    AS Parking Ltd are part of a trio of companies. Athens Security Ltd are currently subject of a proposal to strike off by Companies House because they have failed to file accounts and returns. AS Parking Ltd are currently listed as "Dormant" which is slightly interesting because according to their BPA AOS membership this is the trading arm. If the company is dormant how can they trade? Athens Security Services Ltd continue to operate.

    [Edit]

    Strangely, Falmouth Harbourmasters have a very similar document to that linked to in respect of Armtrac in respect of the Custom House car park but involving A S Parking. Click Here (opens as a pdf) and North Quay as well - Click Here (opens as pdf). These aren't dated but make it clear that the tickets are intended as penalties - something of a pattern emerging here!
    My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016). :(

    For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com
  • taffy056
    taffy056 Posts: 4,895 Forumite
    Chopper does it actually say 'AS Parking Ltd' on the invoice and I mean exactly that , if it's a dormant company they shouldn't be trading , not sure but that could fraudulant
    Excel Parking, MET Parking, Combined Parking Solutions, VP Parking Solutions, ANPR PC Ltd, & Roxburghe Debt Collectors. What do they all have in common?
    They are all or have been suspended from accessing the DVLA database for gross misconduct!
    Do you really need to ask what kind of people run parking companies?
  • HO87
    HO87 Posts: 4,296 Forumite
    edited 23 January 2012 at 1:30AM
    The signage on entering the car park - insofar as it relates to the necessity for BB holders to get a ticket - is hardly in a position where it is visible. Click here for Google Streeview. There is one other sign shown which is further into the car park and is, once again, at a low level and is practically hidden by the ticket machine and would definitely be hidden by parked vehicles. Click Here for Streeview. Allowing for the fact that these images are 2 years old and the warning signs - there are only 2 that I can find on Streetview - are from Armtrac.

    Being an old, established harbour there are byelaws - Click Here - which needless to say provide that failing to obtain a parking ticket is an offence (see para. 42). However, neither the signs nor the OP's ticket appears to make any reference to them whatsoever and if AS Paking's signs are anything like Armtrac's then they are ridiculous, IMHO. The only person liable for a byelaw offence, in this regard, would be driver. There is no owner liability built into the byelaws.

    Besides, as the Harbourmaster is the controlling mind (one presumes) as far as prosecutorial decisions are concerned why would he have seemingly handed this off given the wording of the last paragraph of the clamping policy document? This clearly states that even if the Harbourmaster finds - on appeal - that a clamp or "fixed penalty" has been wrongly applied he can only recommend that a refund is made - the final decision appears to remain with AS Parking. The single word to describe that process would seem to be - abdication.

    On the basis of that paragraph alone I believe there is no prospect of any successful byelaw prosecution and the nature of the signs together with the published clamping/ticket policy would efficiently make a nonsense of any proceedings for breach of contract.
    My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016). :(

    For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com
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