speeding fine challenge?

flyingscotno1

newfoundglory wrote: »

Don't be upset - just remind yourself that this is all about making money.

I agree that pepipoo is best place for this.

I've always wondered how those variable M25 limits work - i've driven in it - but presumably it must be possible to find yourself in a variable limit and not actually know it - depending on whether the boards are showing the correct limit (human or technical error)

Unfortunately, as the system is very undemocratic and mysterious as possible - you'll not likely get any information from the police or local authority - the reason being its all about making ££££££££££

To be fair in a roadworks section it is about trying to slow people down and protect roadworkers rather than purely making cash, although that is a side effect.

Not having a dig at the OP but in general it is amazing to this day the number of people who speed though average speed camera sections to slow at the cameras. Only today I was sitting with my car on the cruise control at 40mph to be overtaken by a guy going a good bit faster who braked for the cameras.

The variable sections are fairly straight forward and fairly obvious- I'd think it would be hard to be caught and not know- the cameras are linked to what is show on the boards with a grace period when the limit changes.

pigeonpie wrote: »

sorry, don't know what a gantry is.
It was Hertfordshire, around J21.
All I can say is that had I seen 50 mph signs, I'd have been going 50.

A gantry is this- http://g.co/maps/42z9z shows speed limits and has cameras in the back if you go too fast (it's off and at the national speed limit in the google pic. In any case you were outwith that section- the roadworks are to widen and install them.

Given the post above mine suggests long term road works and 50 contraflow sure you didn't just miss them- possible on a long drive?

If there wasn't any signage and you can prove this or the folk at pepipoo can turn up a problem with the paperwork then by all means appeal- but this can involve appearances in court. If you can't be bothered to follow through any of those options fine and points may be easier.

KTF

somethingcorporate wrote: »

Your friend is partially right, lots of older cars have an over-read on their speedos, but it's not a fixed 5mph - it can be anything up to 10% (mine is at 70+mph).

Non calibrated speedos are +/- 10%. Allegedly most cameras are 10% of the posted +2mph for this reason.

Nearly_Old

KTF wrote: »

Non calibrated speedos are +/- 10%. Allegedly most cameras are 10% of the posted +2mph for this reason.

Not true all speedometers are -0% + (10% + 6.25) as below:

In the UK it is the Construction and Use Regulations that follow the EU but with different tolerances:

The amended Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 permits the use of speedometers that meet either the requirements of EC Council Directive 75/443 (as amended by Directive 97/39) or UNECE Regulation 39.[11]
The Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2001[12] permits single vehicles to be approved. As with the UNECE regulation and the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed. However it differs slightly from them in specifying that for all actual speeds between 25 mph and 70 mph (or the vehicles' maximum speed if it is lower than this), the indicated speed must not exceed 110% of the actual speed, plus 6.25 mph.
For example, if the vehicle is actually travelling at 50 mph, the speedometer must not show more than 61.25 mph or less than 50 mph.

Modern speedometers are generally more consistent but to be safe manufacturers build in some "overread" otherwise they could be in breach of the Regulations.

The ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) guidelines advise that speeding prosecutions shall not be commenced until a speed of 10% +2 - but this is only guidance / advice to speed camera operators.

KTF

Nearly_Old wrote: »

Not true all speedometers are -0% + (10% + 6.25)

Like a man wearing orthopaedic shoes, I stand corrected.

Either way there is a margin for error built in to the cameras so if they get you, then its hard to wriggle out of.

Notmyrealname

pigeonpie wrote: »

yes it was in a temporary road works area apparently. There was no-one working and the road wasn't narrowed at all. There were certainly no flashing warning symbols as you'd normally see when there's a motorway restriction etc.

On the roadworks on the A1 north of Boroughbridge where they're widening it to 3 lanes and changing to a motorway there are just normal metal speed limit signs.

There is no legal obligation to put up flashing signs as long as they do put up metal ones at the start and every so often. Think about it - how are they supposed to put up flashing overhead signs if the roadworks means they're turned off?

Notmyrealname

pigeonpie wrote: »

sorry, don't know what a gantry is.
It was Hertfordshire, around J21.
All I can say is that had I seen 50 mph signs, I'd have been going 50.

I've just looked at the traffic cameras on traffic england.com.

There are 50MPH limit signs. They're the metal ones on stands. And they're in a lit section as well - hard to miss....

http://www.trafficengland.com/trafficcamera.aspx?cameraUri=http://public.hanet.org.uk/cctvpublicaccess/html/55225.html

Enfieldian

Did the big yellow poles with cameras on top not give it away?

Nearly_Old

Notmyrealname wrote: »

I've just looked at the traffic cameras on traffic england.com.

There are 50MPH limit signs. They're the metal ones on stands. And they're in a lit section as well - hard to miss....

http://www.trafficengland.com/trafficcamera.aspx?cameraUri=http://public.hanet.org.uk/cctvpublicaccess/html/55225.html

The OP would need to check but the 50 sign in the picture does not appear to be lit. I spent over 15 years in motorway/highway maintenance and Chapter 8 of the Traffic Signs Manual when I last used it required all signs where there were street lamps to be separately illuminated. The reason being that the signs are retro-reflective and work very well on unlit roads where the light from headlamps is reflected back. However when street lamps are present the light is not reflected as well as on an un-lit road, hence the need for separate illumination.

OP I think that you can download a copy of Chapter 8 from this site: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/traffic-signs-manual/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-08-part-01.pdf to check if this is still the case.

Nearly_Old

KTF wrote: »

Like a man wearing orthopaedic shoes, I stand corrected.

Either way there is a margin for error built in to the cameras so if they get you, then its hard to wriggle out of.

There isn't really any margin built into the actual cameras as there is a standard calibration process. However as with most things there is going to be some variation in accuracy ("error") with fixed speed cameras and hand held units. This is one reason why the ACPO guidelines were developed as if the prosecution threshold was set too low there was a risk that more people would question the accuracy of the equipment.

The exception is the latest SPEC3 average speed cameras because they do not measure instantaneous speed. As all roads are computer designed the distance between the camera reference points is known for each lane to a within few mm. The timing is also very accurate so theoretically (as speeding is an absolute offence) the threshold could be set at, say 53mph. At 53mph a complaint speedometer could be reading 64.55 (110% of 53 + 6.25) so as you say there wouldn't be any wriggle room.

Notmyrealname

Nearly_Old wrote: »

The OP would need to check but the 50 sign in the picture does not appear to be lit. I spent over 15 years in motorway/highway maintenance and Chapter 8 of the Traffic Signs Manual when I last used it required all signs where there were street lamps to be separately illuminated. The reason being that the signs are retro-reflective and work very well on unlit roads where the light from headlamps is reflected back. However when street lamps are present the light is not reflected as well as on an un-lit road, hence the need for separate illumination.

OP I think that you can download a copy of Chapter 8 from this site: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/traffic-signs-manual/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-08-part-01.pdf to check if this is still the case.

I think that will be a repeater sign as its past the first warning sign for the lane closure. There is also a warning for average speed cameras just after the speed limit sign as well. Certainly a technicality is going to be the only way and she has to prove it wasn't lit.