water softner help in chosing and is this true

southcoastrgi

just to make it clear as there is some confusion.

You CANNOT fill the heating side of a WB or any other boiler with a ally heat exchanger from the softnened side, the heating side ie the filling loop must be connect to the hard water side, it states in every WB MI that it must not be filled with softened water, it will eat through the main heat exchanger, although you can use softened water for the cold feed to the boiler to give you soft hot water, however this only applies if you have an external filling loop, alot of boilers have a built in filling loop & in this case the boiler must be connected to hard water & not a softner

springdove

Doc_N wrote: »

I'd be interested (and it would be useful) to know how you get on with this. Surrey's probably one of the pricier parts of the UK for plumbers!

I haven't got very far with my plans.

The Kinetico dealer has now offered me the 2020c at £1,275 including installation, 5 year on-site labour warranty, 10 bags of salt and the usual 10 year parts warranty.

Plumber #2 who I contacted for the installation of the Tapworks model has now confirmed a £280 installation quote, and I am still trying to get a quote from Plumber # 3. Looks then like the total cost without any salt = c. £720. I think DOCN you said that the Tapworks model comes with a 2 year parts warranty.

If the 10 bags of salt cost £55, I'm essentially paying £500 for
- the additional warranty - (labour and parts)
- for the two resin cylinders v/s one
- and the savings in electricity / maybe salt consumption.

Is it worth that much really!?

DOCN/Windlepoons, how's your Tapworks model functioning? All ok so far?

Doc_N

springdove wrote: »

I think DOCN you said that the Tapworks model comes with a 2 year parts warranty.

If the 10 bags of salt cost £55, I'm essentially paying £500 for
- the additional warranty - (labour and parts)
- for the two resin cylinders v/s one
- and the savings in electricity / maybe salt consumption.

Is it worth that much really!?

DOCN/Windlepoons, how's your Tapworks model functioning? All ok so far?

I'd say definitely not - there's not a lot to go wrong, really, with a decent softener. My Tapworks machine continues to function perfectly (as you'd expect) and it's much the same as the equivalent Ecowater machine costing nearly three times as much - the display is less comprehensive, but that's the only real difference, apart from the shorter warranty.

Even so, the Tapworks warranty is pretty good:

2 years parts warranty
2 years labour warranty
10-year warranty on resin vessel

In practice the two cylinders are pointless. regeneration takes place in the middle of the night, so unless you use water 24 hours a day, there's no benefit to the second cylinder - it's just a gimmick.

BoxerfanUK

springdove wrote: »

Thanks mate. I do need to read the thread properly again. I am not a DIY man so I need help with installation. I feel like the costs are exorbitant for a fitted Kinetico or Harvey but at least they seem to do the job well.

Good luck with the work!

Try this on ebay, brand new, same as Harveys, Twintec, Minimax etc etc ok you'll still have to get someone to fit it if you can't do it yourself but still a big saving on the double glazing sales techniques of lots of firms that sell the same thing at twice the price.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crown-Twin-Tank-Non-Electric-Block-Salt-Water-Softener-/200938579970?pt=UK_H_G_Major_Appliances_Oven_Cooker_Hoods_ET&hash=item2ec8df6802

Puzzu

Hi All,

Been reading this thread for the last week and have finally got to the end.

As to the modern Boiler/softeren water issue, this is a an email I receveid from the Vaillant Help desk for my echoTech Combi;

"Adding a water softener to the incoming mains water supply wont effect the boiler, but we suggest by-passing the water softener when filling the heating system as this can have a detrimental effect on the radiators on your heating system."

Seems to make sense.


Now to my question, I'm looking at the Coral 15 liter water softener and there seems to be 3 models, standard, water save, high flow.

I can understand what each does, but not how.. the question is how much flow reduction does a softener add to the system?

hope to hear back.


thanks

Puzzu

andynb

This is generating a lot of heat! I think the money-saving aspect has thrown in a red herring. This thread has become more about the technical ins/outs and merits of the various types of water softener. Much has been said, but there are one or two misconceptions out there.

1 It has been stated that if some unsoftened water gets through, it doesn't matter. This is not quite true, if you have a water storage tank, it only requires a small amount of hard water to require the use of extra soap. It is true, though, that there will be very little salts to form limescale deposits.

2 The amount of salt used to regenerate the resin would theoretically be the same for any system, but ONLY if the regeneration is performed with the exactly correct amount of brine for the depleted resin. Where your costs could go up would be if the regeneration is constantly being done too early, when the resin was, say, only one-third depleted, but a regeneration was scheduled assuming the resin was fully depleted. This would be the case with a timer-type softener which was either set up wrongly, or if you left your home unoccupied. From this point of view, the Harveys machine with a very accurate water meter would be best. (but I know it is expensive - don't point it out)

3 Block salt versus tablet? Also a bit of a red herring. There is no reason why a machine that is designed for block salt cannot be used with any other salt. The salt sits in water, and the water becomes a fully saturated brine solution. It is irrelevant whether the salt is in block or tablet form. I believe Kinetico now state you can use any type of salt, and I can't see why that should not be the case with any of the Harveys-made brands. Granular salt might not work as it would probably filter down into the water tank and maybe displace the brine. That might give insufficient volume of brine for the regeneration, but tablets would certainly work. Bit fiddly to fill, and would not have the visual indicator, but if you are convinced that the cheaper form of salt is worth the fiddle, it is an option for you.

4 With regard to the magnetic or electronic water conditioners. I tried one years ago and it quickly became obvious that there are two reasons why one wants soft water. First is to avoid scale in pipes and boilers etc. This is what these conditioners claim to do by 're-aligning' or somehow 'converting' the salts to a form that does not deposit. This may or may not be true - some of the science sound very dodgy. However, even if they work the main point is that these salts are only MODIFIED, not REMOVED. Therefore, when you leave the water to evaporate on your shower screen, taps, kettle etc, the salts are still very much there, and you will still get limescale deposits. So don't buy one thinking it will reduce deposits in your bathroom. Nor will it confer the benefits of needing less soap.

I have just bought a Harveys, by the way, but partly because I got a very good deal in that their 'standard' fitting included running new pipes from the garage (where the rising main is located) all the way to the main house to supply the kitchen and the garden taps. I also like the fact that there are no electronic components to go wrong. In theory the best system would be one where the regeneration was controlled by a microprocessor which measured the state of the resin and only performed a regeneration when it was, say, 95% gone. Whether or not this is technically possible right now, I don't know, but one thing I am pretty sure of is that it would be expensive AND when it failed, the cost of a new circuit board would be astronomical.

If I were to get another, I would probably buy the Crown from the man in Dorking for half the price of a Harveys and fit it myself. What you need to be aware of when buying one on the net is that there are several different models with different regeneration settings, so you need to get the right one for your water hardness, or you will either get hard water passed through, or perform unnecessary regenerations.

andynb

fluffymuffy wrote: »

We had a water softener (a couple of houses back) and a mains pressure cylinder. We needed a sacrificial anode (soft metal rod) bolted into the cylinder which was eroded by the water and replaced every couple of years. It was about an inch in diameter, and 6+ inches long when it went in, and smaller than my little finger when the plumber took it out two years later. There's something about water that has had the lime removed that makes it corrosive to metals.

It isn't soft water per se that corrodes things - it is the sodium ions (salt) that have been substituted for the calcium ions.

andynb

Puzzu wrote: »

Hi All,

Been reading this thread for the last week and have finally got to the end.

As to the modern Boiler/softeren water issue, this is a an email I receveid from the Vaillant Help desk for my echoTech Combi;

"Adding a water softener to the incoming mains water supply wont effect the boiler, but we suggest by-passing the water softener when filling the heating system as this can have a detrimental effect on the radiators on your heating system."

Seems to make sense.


Now to my question, I'm looking at the Coral 15 liter water softener and there seems to be 3 models, standard, water save, high flow.

I can understand what each does, but not how.. the question is how much flow reduction does a softener add to the system?

hope to hear back.


thanks

Puzzu

If you have a combi boiler you most certainly want the high-flow version. AND you want it plumbed in with full-bore valves and 22mm pipework. The reason being that you have no storage of water, either hot or cold, so all your supply has to be instantaneously passed through the mains and then the softener. If you already have poor flow when, say, trying to run a bath, the softener will only make it worse. The high-flow version (which might just refer to the sizing of the fittings - I don't know) will have less of a detrimental effect than any others.

malcolm88

I have used self installed water softeners without problems for nearly 50 years, the present model having a maximum working pressure of 60 P.S.I. or if you wish to be modern about 4.2 bar.

We recently had a minor disaster when a plastic component fractured at a water pressure of about 74 P.S.I. ie 5 Bar.

I believe the water company have been working on our main supply, so do check and if necessary fit a pressure reducing valve on your incoming main.

yimpster

I have a 10 year old Waterside MC250 Ultra which seems to be full of water for the last month and the salt is not going down.

Is it worth having this fixed? Or better to spend the money on a more modern version.