water softner help in chosing and is this true

Doc_N

springdove wrote: »

Thanks. I am indeed getting another quote this weekend.

The first plumber who came in claimed it could not be fitted at all, and that water softeners work through reverse osmosis :rotfl:!!

£240 came from plumber # 2.

Surrey by the way...

I'd be interested (and it would be useful) to know how you get on with this. Surrey's probably one of the pricier parts of the UK for plumbers!

springdove

Doc_N wrote: »

I'd be interested (and it would be useful) to know how you get on with this. Surrey's probably one of the pricier parts of the UK for plumbers!

I have now had "between £200 and £300" as an indicative quote from plumber # 3. I'll know more later this week when I hear back.

The thing is, in my case, it isn't a simple installation. Firstly, there isn't a power socket, so it needs an electrician to do that part of the job. Secondly, the plumbing has to be done from scratch i.e. no previous home-owner handouts. Lastly, the installation is in an awkward location - there is a wooden platform above the boiler cylinder which might not take the weight, so there may need to be some strengthening of the wooden platform.

To me, it is looking like a few hours' worth of work (not a full day - but leaving little time for the plumber to start anything new after this job).

Given that the Kinetico chap said installation is £250 anyway, it isn't far off the mark. Let's see, I'll update you guys.

Separately, plumber # 2 said he'd check out whether his supplier can provide the Tapworks at a better price than SNH.

WendellG

WendellG wrote: »

I keep going around in circles reading this thread.

What I have decided is that I must get a non electric meter softener. I would need to change a single socket into a double one to power an electric softener and that would put me into Part P notification, testing and certification - a potentially very expensive electrical rework.

My requirements are:
Non electric, metered, size up to 500mm, must do all boilers, prefer it does both tablet and block salt. Price up to £800

I'm put off the Kinetico as although they look good and small enough, nobody seems to advertise a price. They want to "sell" i.e con you into overpaying for it, and I'd prefer a simpler single tank - fewer things to wrong.

Any suggestions?

In the end I narrowed it down to a choice between the Scalemaster softline 150 and the Plumbsoft Solo. I went for the Scalemaster as it's lot cheaper and single cylinder. I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread but the boiler differences just change the fitting types - the actual softener is the same.

Getting it fitted on Wed, the plumber quoted £150-£180 depending on how trick the connections to the existing pipes are.

ipvaid

This Thread is just amazing, went through most of the posts and all I can say is that lot of information by so many people.

One thing I was not able to find is experience of using water softener with combi boiler experience.

I read UKWTA report which says that it should be fine with aluminium heat exchanger but then again says consult for warranty with your boilder manufacturer. Did anyone installed Water softener to Worcester Combi boiler ?
Wondering to get recommendation and if boiler water cannot be softened which means I cannot use this water for shower, so total waste

Any pointers or suggestion or experience will be useful

Thanks
Inder Vaid

manda1205

ipvaid wrote: »

This Thread is just amazing, went through most of the posts and all I can say is that lot of information by so many people.

One thing I was not able to find is experience of using water softener with combi boiler experience.

I read UKWTA report which says that it should be fine with aluminium heat exchanger but then again says consult for warranty with your boilder manufacturer. Did anyone installed Water softener to Worcester Combi boiler ?
Wondering to get recommendation and if boiler water cannot be softened which means I cannot use this water for shower, so total waste

Any pointers or suggestion or experience will be useful

Thanks
Inder Vaid

We have on our Worcester boiler, it was the Worcester repair guy who told us to get one, as he had to replace our heat exchanger after 18mnths due to scale. I did look up on our model of boiler and it does have an aluminium heat exhanger so should be alright (well nothings gone wrong in the past year or more we've had our softener fitted).
If you google your boiler model it you should be able to find out about the heat exhanger. If not just ask Worcester.

ipvaid

manda1205 wrote: »

We have on our Worcester boiler, it was the Worcester repair guy who told us to get one, as he had to replace our heat exchanger after 18mnths due to scale. I did look up on our model of boiler and it does have an aluminium heat exhanger so should be alright (well nothings gone wrong in the past year or more we've had our softener fitted).
If you google your boiler model it you should be able to find out about the heat exhanger. If not just ask Worcester.

Great, I know worcester that I have has aluminum heat exchanger and there are group of people who say all is fine and some say no it is not. Ofcourse, worcester doesn't like the idea of having water softener perhaps for the same reason you just mentioned i.e. exchanger goes bad and we spend money to buy one so their sale goes up

In between which water softener you have as there are multiple one's and have been looking hard to find a decent non electric one.

Thanks for respond, appreciate it.

Cheers
Inder Vaid

puddy

southcoastrgi wrote: »

softnened water must not be connected to a boiler with an aluminum heat exchanger either the cold feed or the filling loop used to fill the heating, it will over a period of time damage the heat exchanger, most WB & ideal boilers fall into this cat although others do as well, you can use a water softner however a feed must be taken off before it goes through the softner so that the boiler is fed by hard water.

this is quite confusing though, we have been looking at water softeners for a while and I keep coming up against this potential problem, firstly, the main reason why i want a softener is to prevent the constant limescale in the bathroom, secondly is because showering and bathing in softened water is nicer.

on the link someone provided above, it mentions that there was a report into this and no evidence was found to say that it shouldnt be used with an aluminum heat exchanger but more than that, if i read the site correctly, it states that under part L of the building regs, the next time your central heating/boiler is replaced it must have a softener fitted. presumably, boilers are still being made with aluminium heat exchangers?

our boiler (not under warranty, years old) is a sime friendly format 100e or something, im sure i looked it up some time ago and its got an aluminium heat exchanger.

if its also recommended to get a hard water drinking tap (cold) and its not recommended to put softened water into the boiler or heating system, where would the softened water being going? presumably only to the cold taps in the bathroom and toilet cistern?

Doc_N

puddy wrote: »

this is quite confusing though, we have been looking at water softeners for a while and I keep coming up against this potential problem, firstly, the main reason why i want a softener is to prevent the constant limescale in the bathroom, secondly is because showering and bathing in softened water is nicer.

on the link someone provided above, it mentions that there was a report into this and no evidence was found to say that it shouldnt be used with an aluminum heat exchanger but more than that, if i read the site correctly, it states that under part L of the building regs, the next time your central heating/boiler is replaced it must have a softener fitted. presumably, boilers are still being made with aluminium heat exchangers?

our boiler (not under warranty, years old) is a sime friendly format 100e or something, im sure i looked it up some time ago and its got an aluminium heat exchanger.

if its also recommended to get a hard water drinking tap (cold) and its not recommended to put softened water into the boiler or heating system, where would the softened water being going? presumably only to the cold taps in the bathroom and toilet cistern?

It is a little confusing. This extract from the Worcester Bosch website might help a little bit (or perhaps confuse still further!):

"Should I fit a water softener to my boiler?

Water softeners are now commonly used, especially in hard water areas around the UK.

With a condensing boiler, if you intend to use a softener unit you must remember that due to the change in ph level, it would be unwise to fill your central heating system with such water. This will implicate the longevity of your central heating system and pipe work.

Therefore it is wise, when adding water using the filling loop to your condensing boiler, that this is fitted prior to the softener unit.

It is acceptable to pass softened water through the domestic heat exchanger side of the boiler with no negative affects."


The part in bold about the filling loop is important, I think. A competent plumber should be able to achieve that when installing the softener, but I don't pretend to be an expert in this area.

Essentially, all the water in your house should end up soft, with a hard supply to the cold kitchen tap, outside taps, the boiler and the radiators.

It's money well worth spending for the substantial benefits it will bring - but you do need to be sure you get the plumbing right (as you've already worked out!).

puddy

thanks, i realise Im being a bit dim, but that sounds to me as if there isnt any softened water, if the hard water is still servicing the boiler, radiators, cold tap and outside tap where is the softened water going?

or do you mean that both hard and soft water is in the boiler dependent on what you need? how does this work

so would i be able to have a soft water shower and bath heated by the boiler (we dont have a condensing boiler)? would the toilet be filled with soft water?

we have bought a brita filter tap fo the kitchen (whenever thats fitted, been waiting months for it) so although we would have a hard water tap to the kitchen if we got a softener that would then be filtered

is the central heating all closed off then, i thought water came out of the mains and went into it each time you put the heating on?

Doc_N

puddy wrote: »

thanks, i realise Im being a bit dim, but that sounds to me as if there isnt any softened water, if the hard water is still servicing the boiler, radiators, cold tap and outside tap where is the softened water going?

or do you mean that both hard and soft water is in the boiler dependent on what you need? how does this work

so would i be able to have a soft water shower and bath heated by the boiler (we dont have a condensing boiler)? would the toilet be filled with soft water?

we have bought a brita filter tap fo the kitchen (whenever thats fitted, been waiting months for it) so although we would have a hard water tap to the kitchen if we got a softener that would then be filtered

is the central heating all closed off then, i thought water came out of the mains and went into it each time you put the heating on?

As I mentioned, I'm no plumbing expert, and systems vary a lot according to age and type, but heating systems are usually sealed, in the sense that the same hot water goes round the radiators and through a coil inside the hot water cylinder (heating the water indirectly).

It could be different for your system, but the above is, I think, pretty standard these days.

Everything should end up softened, with just the few exceptions I mentioned above. All the water drawn off will be soft, apart from the outside taps and the kitchen cold tap - that's the way it is for us, anyway.