water softner help in chosing and is this true

tipton

Am I correct in assuming that fitting a new valve to my leaking Waterside 250 is pointless - as the resin is now useless, as posted.

We have poor incoming water pressure and a helpful chap from Kennet advises the Clack valve would work better because of this. I am unable to find out which water softeners are fitted with this as standard [they don't have any] - so thinking of getting it fitted as an extra to a Coral 15L - any problems with this ? Can you recommend a reliable softener with this valve if it is advisable. Matt I would really appreciate your advice - Thanks - Tiptons desperate wife !

HeimRoller

Matt_Filterman wrote: »

The softener sounds to be hideously expensive, around four times more costly than a perfectly good, volume controlled softener that should last 20 years +.. the installation sounds about right, particularly if there is some tricky plumbing to be done.
Matt
PS. looked up Hague softeners on the web.. looks like they may be from the USA with a mixed bag of customer comments available on one particular site.. a lot of criticism levelled at some of the sales techniques used though.

Thansk Matt.
Really struggling to get my head round this softening lark! I do not want to install it myself.
Finding it tricky to get a decent softener at a good price.

I live in Woking, wonder if anyone has any advice/tips/recommendations on what they did round here?

Matt_Filterman

tipton.
Although I like the Clack valve I don't know for sure if it is any better than other valves in low pressure situations.. most units have a minimum recommended pressure requirement of 1.8 bar. I have however seen an Autotrol valve work at less than 1.0 bar once many years ago.
The low pressure you mention might not be such a big problem at 2 o' clock in the morning (when most softeners regenerate themselves) as mains pressure tends to be much higher at this time in the morning.
The MC250 Waterside softener you have should be fine once fitted with a new, decent control valve.. the cabinet and resin vessel on these units were perfectly good components, and the resin should last at least a minimum of 15- 20 years on mains water.
As usual I can't recommend any particular company to carry out the work.. my preference would always be to keep things local if at all possible.
If you can get a new softener valve (Clack, Autotrol, Fleck) fitted to your MC250 for less than £250 then you'll end up with something that should last for at least 10 years+.
Matt

Matt_Filterman

HeimRoller.
Don't think I'm going to be able to be of much use to you.. there will be a good local water softener company but couldn't recommend one even if I knew of one due to the rules on this site (which I wholeheartedly agree with by the way).. It might be worth chatting to a local plumbing company if you can't get any recommendations from friends or family.. If you do get any information from a local company, and you want to get a second opinion, just come back to this thread and I'll try and help.
Matt

Uzima

Hi. I have read through this thread as I have concerns about scaling in our hot water supply system, which utilizes a thermal store transferring heat to the mains water which flows through the store in a coil - so very vulnerable at 60+ degrees! I am interested to know if anyone else has experience of polyphosphate treatment. I can only see one mention through the four years of this thread, and that was ignored/dismissed.

I have for several years used a polyphosphate doser (by Permutit) on the rising main that feeds all our water outlets except the ground floor cold taps. It is recommended to replace the doser each year, and the cartridges are currently priced at 20 GBP. Screwfix also sell a similar cartridge. Replacement is straight-forward and it needs only the smallest space.

The polyphosphate is food grade and carries no health hazard. We anyway don’t consume much water from the outlets that are treated. The efficacy of polyphosphate seems well recognized in the industry, especially in the USA where iron seems often to be a problem. And in UK, Southern Water endorse it for 'chemical conditioning', stating that ‘instead of replacing or removing calcium it is possible to make the calcium less available for formation of deposits by adding polyphosphates.’ They add that ‘in some areas, water has been dosed with phosphate by the water undertaking’ - though this is to prevent lead leaching into the water.

A document quoted by the EPA in USA states: ‘Very low levels of polyphosphates (1-10 ppm) interfere with crystal growth. This type of scale inhibition is referred to as a threshold property because it occurs at a level much lower than would be required for a stoichiometric reaction. Threshold inhibition by polyphosphates of calcium and magnesium carbonate formation is particularly effective at a pH range of 8-10 where carbonate scale in potable water is a major problem. Calcium sulfate scale is often a problem at lower pH ranges. The same mechanism of scale inhibition that can occur with calcium carbonate at a high pH range can also occur with calcium sulfate at a lower pH range at similar low (1-10 ppm) levels of phosphate addition. Experience has shown that polyphosphates not only inhibit scale formation, but they can also help remove existing hard deposited carbonate or sulfate scale. Pipelines carrying potable water treated with polyphosphate for extended periods of time (several months) first show a gradual softening of the scale followed by disintegration and removal. The soft scale particles are deflocculated by the polyphosphate and carried away resulting in a clean piping system.’

Of course this doesn't soften water - so you don't get the savings associated with that. But for scale damage, I am hoping it is the answer!

pieman_71

Hi
Having decided to put in a softener I came across this and have now read it all and found it very helpful so thank you to the regular posters.

Have been convinced by the likes of moonrakerz, Matt F and Doc N (thanks guys!) to go for the single tank (that peshi was a character wasn’t he!) so there seems to be 2 leaders from this discussion:

The Permutit at B&Q recommended by moonrakerz

The Coral that joe t bought last year http://www.299softeners.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=231.

Am swinging towards the 15L Metered Coral – at £414 seems good and looks like joe got his problems resolved but an update would be good to hear. Anyone have any other suggestions?

My other question is more important as it could negate the benefit of putting in a softener at all!
We’ve just had a new Valiant Combi boiler put in so what was the final recommendation of whether to put the softened water through it? My current plan is to put everything through the softener bar an outside tap and the main kitchen sink but I saw some discussion earlier in the thread on Combi boilers. The only mention of it in the install guide for the boiler is as follows
“Fitting a water softener on the mains cold water inlet of the combi boiler is not necessary. In regions with extremely hard water (greater than 300 mg/l of CaCO3) however a water softener may still be fitted in order to prevent the formation of scale build up in the water pipes.”
From that I take it I’m OK to go ahead as planned as it certainly isn’t saying not to?

Look forward to hearing back, thanks

Doc_N

Doc_N wrote: »

Just to add to the conversation here, I'd just mention that Permutit is no longer the big 'brand' that it was many years back. It now looks to be just a B&Q brand, and carries about as much weight as the now Argos-owned Chad Valley toys.

As for meters, the newer sort (including, I think, the AD11) are more than just meters. They attempt to predict usage using past usage as a guide, and my experience is that they do it pretty well. The life of a softener is so long that you could well recover a lot more than the initial extra cost - particularly as salt prices continue to rise. I'm a big fan of the Ecowater softeners, having had excellent experience of them over many years (never serviced and still going strong - no panel failures!) but as the Tapworks models look to be identical at a much lower price I'd seriously consider one of those - I'd want to check them over side by side first, though to see if they really are identical (other than cosmetically).

pieman_71 wrote: »

My other question is more important as it could negate the benefit of putting in a softener at all!
We’ve just had a new Valiant Combi boiler put in so what was the final recommendation of whether to put the softened water through it? My current plan is to put everything through the softener bar an outside tap and the main kitchen sink but I saw some discussion earlier in the thread on Combi boilers. The only mention of it in the install guide for the boiler is as follows
“Fitting a water softener on the mains cold water inlet of the combi boiler is not necessary. In regions with extremely hard water (greater than 300 mg/l of CaCO3) however a water softener may still be fitted in order to prevent the formation of scale build up in the water pipes.”
From that I take it I’m OK to go ahead as planned as it certainly isn’t saying not to?

Look forward to hearing back, thanks

On the last point, I have no knowledge, but others here have. The discussion on whether the feed to combi boilers should be hard or soft still seems not fully resolved. Logic suggests soft (and that seems to be confirmed by your installation guide) but some manufacturers (maybe the poorer ones, and Vaillant isn't one of those) suggest there might be (corrosion?) problems.

Certainly I'd make sure any outside taps and a kitchen tap are hard - all the other outlets should be soft.

I've also quoted an earlier post relating to Tapworks. Well worth considering these to check whether the construction is (as I suspect) much the same as the much more expensive, and well-regarded, Ecowater models. Same company, very similar models, but very different prices.

It's a minefield, isn't it? Good luck with your choices.

mad990diver

You have to put the softened water through the Combi Boiler water heating side or there's no point in having a softener in the first place. You typically get more scale forming in your sinks etc. from hot water so you want this soft!

However, the question remains whether to fill the central heating loop with hard or soft water. Theory has it that the increased salinity of the soft water is bad for the heating loop, heat exchanger etc and increased corrosion may damage your boiler. Frankly IMO this is irrelevant compared to the need to ensure your central heating loop contains a good quality corrosion inhibitor which is replenished / replaced on a suitably frequent basis.

Too many people leave out this essential to 'save money' and end up having to fork out for additional expensive repairs which were avoidable if a good inhibitor was added to their heating loop.

pieman_71

Thanks for the replies, mad990diver you're absolutely right hence why I said the answer to the boiler question may negate the benefit of the softener.

Having work done at the moment and the system will be drained again but we will definitely add an inhibitor once complete. So with that there, are you suggesting soft or hard water for the heating loop?

thanks

Matt_Filterman

I'm with mad990diver on this one.. the main thing with your central heating loop is to get a good corrosion inhibitor in the system.
As far as using softened water, I wouldn't worry about using it in your heating system loop.. softened water is only slightly chemically changed from hard water by having the calcium and magnesium ion content replaced by sodium ions. I have been in the industry for nearly 20 years and have never seen any evidence of damage caused by the use of softened water in central heating system loops, or even domestic hot or cold water plumbing systems for that matter.. not having a decent corrosion inhibitor in your heating system loop will however be a very expensive omission!
Matt