water softner help in chosing and is this true

joe_t

moonrakerz wrote: »

Hi Joe, I am still around , don't post much on this thread because it just seems to go round and round the same arguments - at least you did take the time to read some of what has gone before.

I would still give the same advice, don't get seduced by all the glib sales patter. You DO NOT need two cylinders "to ensure a constant supply of soft water" - it is unnecessary additional complexity to buy, and as most of them use block salt the running costs are FAR higher than a single cylinder machine. It is true that they might use a little less salt - but when that salt costs twice as much ???
Even if you don't have electricity close by, the price differential is such that it well may be cheaper overall to get an electrician in to put in another 13A socket (or two).

I shall now put my tin hat back on and retreat to my bunker :rotfl::rotfl:

thanks moonrakerz,
i have power close by, and im a tiler so i know a few plumbers.
tonight ive been looking at the tapworks ad11 for about £450 with the pressurised boiler system kit.
i cant seem to find out what valve it uses though.
i wont hold you to it but what would you score this out of 10.
if its not a good un can you point me at some names just so i can compare.
thanks.
joe...............

moonrakerz

I must confess that I don't know a great deal about all the different makes of softener, most of which are competing on little more than gimmickry. It really has become a "happy hunting ground" for manufacturers and slick salesmen.
I just Googled your machine and came across a "comparison table" between a number of twin cylinder machine and a "cheap and nasty" single cylinder machine.
The table (of course shows ALL the twin cylinder machines to be much better - surprise, surprise !) is a classic example of telling only half the story and creating a totally false picture, if you look a little deeper it tells a totally different story.

It says:-
Twin cylinder uses 220 - 300 g of salt per regeneration
Single cylinder uses 420 - 1630 g of salt per regeneration
The real story:-
Twin cylinder machines obviously have smaller cylinders, therefore they will need to regenerate much more often (using expensive block salt !).
Single cylinder machines have manual adjustment to set salt useage per regeneration - in theory it COULD use 1630g each time (IF you set it to that) but in reality it will be set to a much lower figure.
Exactly the same applies to the water consumption figures per regeneration, 19L against 49L - NOT the whole story.
The biggest red herring of all is of course; "a twin cylinder will give you soft water ALL the time" - true, well sort of !
If I go to the bathroom in a 10 minute time slot at about 3 o'clock on a Saturday morning there is a slight "risk" that I could put 6L of un-softened water into my toilet cistern, will that make the earth go into another orbit ? It will make absolutely NO difference whatsoever - is that really worth paying hundreds of pounds extra to avoid ?

As both types of machine use the same type of resin in the ion exchange column the amount of brine needed to regenerate the same quantity of resin will be exactly the same in both types of machine. To quote salt and water consumption figures per regeneration is totally meaningless - and is used solely to mislead. Exactly the same as saying that a car with a 10 gal fuel tank is a lot less expensive to run compared to a car with a 20 gal tank - which takes twice as much petrol to "regenerate" it; actually tells you Zilch about how many miles per gal the car actually does.

I have had 4 different softeners in 3 houses since the 80s - all have been single cylinder with the same make of electro-mechanical clock/regenerating valve. It is simple, much cheaper to buy than the gimmick laden models and - it does the job equally well and demonstrably a lot cheaper !!

If you want to spend over £1000 on a water softener with 2 (or even more !) cylinders, with electronic controls and LCD displays and uses special shaped blocks of salt - please don't let me dissuade you, it is your money to do with as you wish.
BUT - if you want a functional softener that does the job just as well - get a basic single cylinder machine.

PS:
This is what lives underneath my sink at present:
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9271767&fh_location=//catal!!!1/en_GB/categories%3C%7B9372015%7D/categories%3C%7B9372046%7D/categories%3C%7B9372180%7D/specificationsProductType=water_softners/specificationsSpecificProductType=water_softeners&tmcampid=4&tmad=c&ecamp=cse_go&CAWELAID=266887986

joe_t

thanks moonrakerz,
i had a read of the tap works ad11 manual and the computer board idea does put me off a little (something else to break) i could be wrong on this but im guessing a broken board might be £200 to £300.
a simpler meter would do for me really.
i have spoken to tapworks and they tell me there valves are supplied by aquamatic, matt filterman seems quite insistent on clack, fleck 5600 or autotrol 255.
so im a little lost again.
the permutit you link to @ £413 is timed ( i think i really want metered) the metered version by permutit costs £612 so quite an increase really.
i have found a company in norwich called clearbrook water treatment.
they sell Homesoft machines using Autotrol valves and there EcoWater machines use their own valve.
Prices for the softeners start at £690 plus fitting plus materials, which does seem fairly high, considering they are singe cylinder softeners.
im finding the web is not a great tool for finding out much regarding softeners which is quite surprising really.
as you and others have said, what i need can be achieved fitted for less than the dearer permutit or the 2 others from clearbrook.
so im still on the hunt.
anymore help you have please post.

thanks again.
joe...................



edit: i just found this site http://www.299softeners.com/ there based fairly near to me.
do you anything that seems worth considering.
i am going to call them and see what valves they use.

moonrakerz

joe_t wrote: »

the permutit you link to @ £413 is timed ( i think i really want metered) the metered version by permutit costs £612 so quite an increase really.

I have never worried about metering the water. If you get a water hardness testing kit it will take you only a few weeks to get the softener set up to exactly what you need. It is surprising how constant household water useage is - if you do suddenly think you are going to use an awful lot of water - coming back off holiday with 6 suitcases full of laundry and six smelly, sweaty people, just force a manual regeneration at some convenient stage.

That extra £199 would buy me (as near as damn' it) a TONNE of granular salt - that is an awful lot of regenerations !

Don't forget, there is no such thing as hard or soft water. There is just water with varying degrees of hardness, each day that passes between regenerations, your water is getting a bit harder until you regenerate. If you do an extra manual regeneration when it isn't really needed - it doesn't matter - your water is now a bit softer than it normally is.

Doc_N

Just to add to the conversation here, I'd just mention that Permutit is no longer the big 'brand' that it was many years back. It now looks to be just a B&Q brand, and carries about as much weight as the now Argos-owned Chad Valley toys.

As for meters, the newer sort (including, I think, the AD11) are more than just meters. They attempt to predict usage using past usage as a guide, and my experience is that they do it pretty well. The life of a softener is so long that you could well recover a lot more than the initial extra cost - particularly as salt prices continue to rise. I'm a big fan of the Ecowater softeners, having had excellent experience of them over many years (never serviced and still going strong - no panel failures!) but as the Tapworks models look to be identical at a much lower price I'd seriously consider one of those - I'd want to check them over side by side first, though to see if they really are identical (other than cosmetically).

joe_t

thanks doc,
the tapworks AD10 looks for me best at the minute, apart from the valve (not one of the 3 favoured here) and the meter.
the meter as you say could be a great but what concerns me with it is its life span.
could you guys have a quick look at the link 3 posts back and just see if the brands mean anything to you.
ive read a fair bit (still confused) but not heard of many of the softeners on that site, im waiting for an email reply from them regarding what valve they use, no reply on there phone so not a good sign.
joe................

Doc_N

joe_t wrote: »

thanks doc,
the tapworks AD10 looks for me best at the minute, apart from the valve (not one of the 3 favoured here) and the meter.
the meter as you say could be a great but what concerns me with it is its life span.
could you guys have a quick look at the link 3 posts back and just see if the brands mean anything to you.
ive read a fair bit (still confused) but not heard of many of the softeners on that site, im waiting for an email reply from them regarding what valve they use, no reply on there phone so not a good sign.
joe................

The only brands in your link that mean anything are Ecowater (which I can recommend from personal experience) and Tapworks, which is another brand from the same company. Ecowater has been around for a long time, but they are expensive.

The Tapworks/Ecowater models could well be identical, mechanically and electronically, but you'd need to check that. The prices are very different.

As to reliability, I've had my Ecowater for almost 17 years now, and it's had so servicing or repairs whatsoever. It was in storage for two years within that period, and although I expected problems when I had it plumbed into the new place, it started again perfectly without the slightest hitch.

joe_t

thanks doc,
i will contact tapworks and see if there the same valves etc stc.
thanks for taking the time on this, you too moonrakerz.
joe........

Doc_N

joe_t wrote: »

thanks doc,
i will contact tapworks and see if there the same valves etc stc.
thanks for taking the time on this, you too moonrakerz.
joe........

No problem. It would be useful to everyone on this thread, though, if you could feed back when you find out.

My guess is that the Tapworks/Ecowater models are identical under the surface - they're aimed at different markets, with very different prices as a result. But a dealer's told me they're not - he has an axe to grind, though, because he'd far rather sell an Ecowater with a hugely greater profit margin than the equivalent Tapworks model.

It would be very useful to know for sure whether they're the same under the skin.

joe_t

i will report what i find out and what i finally buy.
this may take a couple more weeks yet as im a bit of need to know the what ifs and buts before i buy.
joe.............