water softner help in chosing and is this true

Chunks

Thanks Spirit. Outside (on the wall where the main enters the house) isn't an option neither is the downstair loo. I have bags of room in the loft but appreciate that it's far from ideal (wouldn't feed the dishwasher/washing machine) and may not be possible anyway (technically speaking). I am therefore looking for a reasonably priced (no bells, does what it says on the tin) unit that has the smallest footprint possible (if it must go under the sink).

Any thoughts?

cheers

Chunks

spirit

Chunks, there are quite a few of them that will fit in the cupboard under the sink. i would not advise a twin tank as they will take up more room (and has an unneccessary tank) and twice the price. Bought mine from a power seller on ebay but there are lots around if you google something like single tank water softeners.

Avoriaz

moonrakerz wrote: »

............also they usually take block salt which is enormously expensive compared to ordinary granular salt.

Is there any reason why you can't use tablet or granular salt in a softener designed for block salt?

Apart from having to refill regularly is there any downside?

Might it use more salt as the tablet salt dissolves more quickly or does it just dissolve until the brine is saturated and cannot dissolve any more salt?

This suggests you can substitute tablet salt for blocks.

Matt_Filterman

Hi Chunks.
Go for the small unit downstairs.. It may not be a perfect solution but you'll always regret fitting a softener in the loft.. I used to work as a trouble shooting engineer for a softener company and saw far too many situations where whole severe damage had been caused when these machines had malfunctioned (which they will one day.. they are mechanical) causing flooding and ceilings being bought down. Also they can be quite noisy when they regenerate so can disturb people sleeping in the rooms below.
Avoriaz.
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned having to fill the unit more frequently.. that's the only down side. You could try and design a hopper to fit onto the softener to enable you to fill it fuller and I think some manufacturers can actually supply these.
You won't use more salt by using granular/ tablet salt.. water has a finite capacity to dissolve salt and so once a saturated brine solution has been achieved no more salt will be dissolved into the water.
Matt

Avoriaz

Thanks Matt.

That is what I thought but it is good to have it confirmed.

Allchange_2

Hi Matt:A

I wonder if you can provide some more specific advice on Water Softeners. We live east of Bournemouth and had a new house built 3 years ago. Although we had always intended to install a Water Softener, we found it impossible to choose between them! This dilemma has continued. Our plumbers are not much help in recommending a system, although they would be capable of installing as they did all plumbing incl underfloor ch etc. We have 4 beds with ensuite bathrooms plus a wet room and separate cloakroom. We also have an outside undercover swimming pool. We installed a Hydro International underground rainwater harvester which supplies the toilets and garden water. The harvester, is backed up by a standard water supply in cases of low rainfall. Our water supply is metered. The water softener would be sited in an integral garage which also houses our Viessman Boiler and hot water tank. We have two sinks in the kitchen, one with a Quooker hot water tap. Our water quality is fine, just quite hard which is now evidenced by limescale build up throughout house generally. Few questions concerning Water Softener installations. I assume it would not be wise to route the 'regeneration' water to the Harvester. We are a four person family - 2 adults and 2 teenage children and as our usage is 'unpredictable' we would prefer a metered system. You have expressed a view that twin systems are unnecessary, however, would we have problems with regeneration? Is granular or block salt preferable? Can an indicator be installed to warn when salt getting low? You mention some valves which appear to be robust but how do we get a system with these on? I do not particularly want to go along the 'complete package' route as I feel having project managed the build with the main contractor, we should be 'intelligent enough' to make an informed choice. However, the confusion continues. I have read through your forum entries and tried to take on board your comments but I still need to shout HELP! Do you think you could assist? I do not mind if this messsage is printed to the Forum - the only reason I have directed it to you is you seem to be the most knowledgeable member! Hope you can provide some advice..... Thanks

Catbells

Have finally got round to getting a quote and was given the following information about Kinetico. Do you think the price sounds about right for one of these kinetico water softeners


"The MIni Kinetic B is looked upon as being the downgraded version of the 2020c but there is little difference in specification. The MKB uses slightly more salt per regeneration (.3kg as oposed to .23kg) and has lower flow rates, but this will not have any noticable affect on a conventional gravity fed system. The main difference is in warranty with only 1 year labour and 2 year parts. This system is £740.00 inc VAT". (fitting costs at least £225 extra)

The Kinetico 2020c is £200 more but has a 10 year parts warranty - a big difference compared to the Mini Kinetic B. I've asked them why this is. Any advice welcomed.

sunil1234

Please can i stick my question in here;)

We have a kinetico 2020c that is installed in a kicthen cupboard with an integrated dishwasher on the adjoining cupboard.

Its about 2 1/2yrs old and has been used mainly with block salt but the odd top of granular when i ran out of blocks.

However, what has been happening lately is that salt residue can be seen on the outside around the area where the front panel flips down to load the salt. This occurs even though the compartment is properly closed.

Any ideas as to what action needs to be taken please?

thank you

Sunil

Matt_Filterman

Hi Allchange.
I read your post with interest.
I guess your water will have a hardness of about 300ppm and with so many bathrooms and a wet room I could imagine flow rates could exceed 50 litres per minute. The overall picture you are painting regarding the size of softener is looking around the 50 litre simplex ( single tank) small commercial size with a 1" valve. This softener would be rated at 30 litres per minute with a peak flow of 60 litres per minute so should be ideal. It would probably regenerate about once per week (during the night) so no problems with regeneration. Granular or tablet salt would be fine.. don't use block salt as it's quite expensive and you wouldn't gain anything from it. The regeneration water would be saline so should be routed into a foul drain.
The two softener valves I would consider would be either a Fleck 2510 metered or a Clack WS1 CI.. both are 1" and work on volume control.. the Clack has the advantage that it has a salt alarm that can be programmed in to the set up although I have never done this myself.
Cost wise I would expect you to pay around the £825 (+ VAT) mark for the Clack and maybe a bit more for the Fleck. This is taking into account a reasonable mark up for the supplier if they are sourcing their products properly.
Installation cost would be related to the complexity of the job and whether you want to run a separate un-softened supply to your kitchen tap (there is probably some by-law that says you shoud) which can be quite difficult sometimes. If it were me I'd drink the softened water as 99 times out of 100 the sodium levels would remain well within the parameters for drinking water. People on ultra low sodium diets or anyone making up baby formula should be made aware.
Hope this helps.
Matt

Avoriaz

sunil1234 wrote: »

Please can i stick my question in here

We have a kinetico 2020c that is installed in a kicthen cupboard with an integrated dishwasher on the adjoining cupboard.

Its about 2 1/2yrs old and has been used mainly with block salt but the odd top of granular when i ran out of blocks.

However, what has been happening lately is that salt residue can be seen on the outside around the area where the front panel flips down to load the salt. This occurs even though the compartment is properly closed.

Any ideas as to what action needs to be taken please?

thank you

Sunil

Hi Sunil

There is a float mechanism inside that determines the maximum level of water. Perhaps that is set too high and the brine water is rising so high that it is leaking out the top, evaporating and leaving a salt residue.

Or perhaps you are just a bit clumsy when you refill with salt and some water splashes out. You don’t notice that until it dries and leaves a salt residue.