Prohibited Steps Order?

sleepysand

Hi, I would be grateful if anyone could offer advice.

I have been divorced for 9 years now, and our 4 children have always lived with me, ex seeing them fortnightly, except when (quite often) his business made it inconvenient. The oldest, now 17, stopped seeing him 5 years ago because of his controlling ways, and issues with his new wife, but lately I have got that better on track and he has seen him three times this year.

Number 2 son, now 16, has always had huge admiration for his dad (who is a millionaire businessman and spends fortunes on him), which is fine by me, except that I dislike the manipulation, and the hurt this special treatment causes the others. I get (relatively!!!!) very little maintenance (I love accountants, they are so creative), 1000 a month, and cannot match what he does.

About 18 months ago I moved in with a new partner, which meant we moved to a lovely house about 50 miles away. Access was unaffected because ex already lives 100 miles away, and the move was alł discussed with boys and ex a year ahead. It caused #2 son some upset, because of the change in school - we moved when he was at the end of Y9. At the time I discovered ex had been making arrangements with #2, with no reference to me or the others, to have him live with him - he had even applied for a school place. On seeing the devastation among his brothers, #2 decided not to move away, though he was unhappy about the move. However, he settled quickly, and seemed happy.

I have enabled him to see his old friends fortnightly, at a cost of money I don't have and time with him I would love. But he stayed with us.

3 days ago, though, #2 once again let slip that Dad and he are once again plotting (sorry!) this time the plan being that Dad is going to emigrate to the USA, for business reasons, and take #2 (only) with him. He will then be in Y12.

I love my sons to the last breath in my body, and the thought of my family being torn apart is unbearable. Not only would #3 and 4 lose dad, but brother, and would be rejected by dad too. #2 is just 16, not old enough to weigh up what is best for anyone, and is being bribed all the time. He is very bright, head boy of school, and (should he stay with us) has a place at one of the best 6th forms in the country lined up.

I have heard of a prohibited steps order. Can anyone give me advice?

Emmzi

At 16, he can move out of the family home of his own volition. There is no court in the land that will grant prohibited steps for an education; you are looking at abuse situations.

A year in the US working with dad (does dad see him as hier to the business?) may be good for the lad and if it isn't, he can come back to blighty and pick up studies again. Let's be honest, the uni fees are crippling and the job market isn't thriving. He must be sensible if they made him head boy?

I'm just saying this probably isn't "the end of the world" as you paint it.

Can you have a discussion, mediated if neccessry, with dad?

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow

You can't keep him with you forever your gonna have to accept that at some stage he is going to want to do his own thing and for your son it looks like the time is now. I honestly can't see what the problem is - apart from the fact that your other sons are going to miss their dad hugely of course.

I also can't see a judge granting a PSO for this - it's certainly not what they were originally intended for.

clearingout

A PSO is intended to stop a parent doing something the other parent is against - such as leaving the country with the children - until some agreement can be reached. The problem with this situation is the age of the child in question. At 16, it would be normal for a judge to allow a child to 'vote with their feet' on the understanding that you can't make a teenager live in a home they don't want to. What worries me about this is the child's education, relationship with his siblings and the fact dad is quite happy to plot behind mum and other sibling's backs. It says an awful lot that he's prepared to take one child without discussing it with the others.

I think you might find a free half hour with a family law solicitor of value - but I think they will tell you there is nothing you can do. The exception might be if he intends to leave the country prior to completing his GCSEs. I would ask questions around the law and 16 year olds and passports and airline rules - so if he's allowed to go through passport control under his own steam (no 'adult' around) and the airlines will carry him (without an 'adult' with him), then really, there's not going to be much you can do. However, if you're not considered an adult until you're 18 from a travelling point of view (I have no idea how it works), then you possibly, maybe, have something to play with. There may also be something positive to be found in US immigration law in terms of who the child is living with in the UK and having to give 'permission' for the child to travel/sign off a visa so have a google and see what that throws up.

Ultimately, weighing up what he wants and allowing him to go making it clear the door is always open for him to return, may well be better than taking court action to keep him somewhere he doesn't want to be. Skype, e-mail, iphones etc. etc. all make the world a far smaller place than it used to be and it's not impossible to talk every day. And he may hate it when he gets there. And it may well open a world of opportunity.

(((Hugs)))) this is one of those hideous separated parenting issues that we all hope we never have to face. Never made easier with ex's who are controlling and secretive and who ultimately set out to 'win'.

sleepysand

I very much appreciate your advice, all of you. The PSO is a bit of a sledgehammer; something that I would very much like to have, both literally and figuratively, in any dealings with my ex.

A couple of things that I do know - at 16, actually, he can't leave home without my consent, and taking children abroad and out of the jurisdiction is exactly what the PSO was designed for. I have and am trying to weigh it up - and I ought to have made it clearer that no 2 is himself a bit ambivalent about all of it, not least because he has a girlfriend (2 years) who he can currently see often, but clearly wouldn't be able to; and also, he will know that his brothers would find it hard to forgive either him or his father if he went ahead and did this.

There is no question of him getting a job at this stage - he doesn't want to, the intention on his father's part is apparently that he will go to school in the USA. My son is probably in the top 1% academically in his year and his intention was always that he did a degree, probably in Maths at Oxford, or (and we had always talked about this) look for a scholarship on academic and income grounds in the US. I accept that at 18, he will go - but not at 16, and not in a way that so underlines the favouritism for one only out of four very close and very able brothers. (Another example of this came recently, when Dad offered to pay for driving lessons and car insurance for no 2, which he would not do for no 1, who rides a motorbike - which I can afford to insure - instead. The list is endless.)

I suppose what I really wanted to know was a) am I being unreasonable and b) what rights, ultimately, have I got to ensure that he doesn't get carte blanche to do whatever his father can manipulate him into. Probably, as you suggest, a half hour with a decent solicitor (if such exist) would be a sound plan.

Emmzi

http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/subsites/kccentral/yourvoice/yourrights/yourrightsat16.aspx

"your rights at 16"

Leaving Home and Housing

• leave home without your parents’ permission (if you’re under 17, Family Services might apply for a Care Order, but you probably wouldn’t be forced to go home)

You are not being unreasonable in your feelings but I believe there is damn all you can do about it and your efforts would be better spent strengthening the relationship with your son rather than giving the father ammunition to say you are "an unreasonable cow, you are better off without her, controlling !!!!!" etc etc.

Because you already know that is what will happen.

sleepysand

Strengthening the relationship would be a lot easier if I did not now feel always so distrustful of him, and also if I could stop myself crying. He is away currently, staying with girlfriend's parents. I can cope with not seeing him every day. But if he lived in the USA, his return trips would be wholly in his father's gift - I do not have that sort of money, as I am the only one who is going to support my oldest at University. His father would simply prevent our ever seeing each other. I am not looking for a PSO to stop him leaving home, but to stop him leaving the country to live with someone that he has seen perhaps 5% of the time for the last 9 years, and that only when his dad could be bothered to arrange his business trips to fit in.

peachyprice

And how do you think your son will react to you taking out a PSO if he decides this is something he really wants to do?

At 16 you have to give him some control over his own life, he will resent you forever if you take this opportunity away from him for your own needs. It's a opportunity many 16yo's would die for.

This country has nothing for youngsters at the moment. There is no reason whatsoever why he cannot get a first class education in the US if your ex is willing to foot the bill, so that is a moot point really.

There are US uni's that are held in as much high regards at Oxford, if you force him to stay here against his will he may rebel completely and refuse to go where you want him to anyway.

You need to discuss this with your son in an unbiased way, removing your own emotions from the equation, you cannot blackmail him into doing what you want, just because it will make you feel better.

BugglyB

This might not be the case, you know better than I do, but I do have a feeling that talking, or plotting to do something, and actually doing it, are two very different things.

Does new wife know that son number two is going to be joining them for their new life abroad? Is she happy with that? Is everyone signed up to the reality of him living with his dad 24/7? Is dad even definitely moving yet? Has your sons father enrolled him in a school, or found out about education for him? Are there flights booked and a house found for them to live in? When it comes to the crunch would your son really leave his girlfriend, brothers and dear mum?

Or is it all just a pipe dream and a promise? 'We were thinking of moving' 'but I'd really miss you' 'wow, you could come with us, we'd go to disneyworld every weekend and eat cake for breakfast every day!'

My feeling is if you go off getting legal advice and waving order in their face it will be the perfect excuse for them to say well we wanted you to come with us but your mum won't let you, then they are the fantastic parents and you are the bad guy holding your son back. When maybe their intention isn't to take him, or even to move, in the first place.

sleepysand

peachyprice wrote: »

And how do you think your son will react to you taking out a PSO if he decides this is something he really wants to do?

At 16 you have to give him some control over his own life, he will resent you forever if you take this opportunity away from him for your own needs. It's a opportunity many 16yo's would die for.

This country has nothing for youngsters at the moment. There is no reason whatsoever why he cannot get a first class education in the US if your ex is willing to foot the bill, so that is a moot point really.

There are US uni's that are held in as much high regards at Oxford, if you force him to stay here against his will he may rebel completely and refuse to go where you want him to anyway.

You need to discuss this with your son in an unbiased way, removing your own emotionas from the equation, you cannot blackmail him into doing what you want, just because it will make you feel better.

I've never mentioned forcing him. As I have made it clear, I hope, I want to know what sanctions ultimately I have with regard to his father. He is the kind of person who only wants to hurt and win.

I have also, I hope, made it clear that University is a different matter. This is NOT University we are talking about - it is sixth form. And what you do not take into account is the impact on the three others - 17, 14 and 13 years old - who will lose a brother and have it very clearly stated that they just don't matter to their father as much as their brother.

Emmzi

sleepysand wrote: »

I am not looking for a PSO to stop him leaving home, but to stop him leaving the country to live with someone that he has seen perhaps 5% of the time for the last 9 years, and that only when his dad could be bothered to arrange his business trips to fit in.

And the court will say "Isn't it brilliant his dad wants to get to know him now! What does son want to do? Oh, he wants to travel? That's broadening and educational!"

I know it's tough. I know you are just going though the options and exhausting them. But you do need to be realistic.

If dad is as shocking as you think, son will find that out on his own. Don't make it a stand off or he won't feel able to come home. don't make him feel he is choosing between you, he may see that choice as final, and you aren't going to win over lots of cash, foreign travel, and attention from a parent who has neglected him.

Or, they may end up having a good releationship. He may get a place in the family business and a great future. he may get an amazing education. Your son deserves the chance to find out if that is possible. His rights are more important here than yours.

Dad can't be that bad if you had kids with him, surely? It's ok not to like him now but it doesn't make him eveil.

Don't be so stubborn that you force son to choose, and close doors. I know you want to scream and shout. I know it is unfair.

You're going to have to put up and do the best you can. No emotional blackmail. No tantrums. no court orders.

Your son could be joining the army. In Scotland he could be getting married. He wants to test out a bit of freedom. There are worse ways to do it. If it doesn't work out, and he comes home at 17 for college, that's absolutely fine. He's just had an early gap year. If he ends up having a great career in the states, be proud!