Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

SevenOfNine

zygurat789 wrote: »

The average life expectancy with Alzheimer's is 8 years from the onset of symptoms. Otherwise going into a nursing home tends to be fairly short term.

...........& the non 'average' is? How much will the care home fees be now, in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? How can anyone know they'll have enough to cover the costs, when they don't know how much or for how long.

Lets say myself & Lessonlearned have 500k each & we both need to pay for care fees. If I still had all my 500k but LL had given away 150k to her children several years earlier, then clearly I'm going to be expected to chip in more.

How would that be any fairer than the negative judgement of OP's plan to find a way to remove some of his/her assets (& I haven't said I agree with OP's attitude). LL has just come up with a more palatable reason for 'deprivation', nothing more.

I should add that I'm not trying to stand in judgement of LL's choice, to be perfectly frank I took son1/dil & grandsons to Orlando, & gave son2 5k (the same value).

Then I 'loaned' son2 8k to help with his house purchase, I'm keeping a record of my 'gifting' of xx amount per year by way of the loan repayments & we're taking son1 & family to Orlando again next year which should even up the whole financial thing between the 2 brothers.

The only difference is I'm well aware there IS an element of deprivation of assets, which does not make me (or LL) whiter than white over the shade of grey OP is being painted.

zygurat789

SevenOfNine wrote: »

...........& the non 'average' is? How much will the care home fees be now, in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? How can anyone know they'll have enough to cover the costs, when they don't know how much or for how long.

.

Non average would be 6 months.
No one knows what anything will be in the future unless you have a time machine, I believe the Borg did so perhaps you would tell me who will win the Grand National next year.

lessonlearned

I think perhaps the main difference is the original poster wants to leave ALL her money to her children, which is perfectly understandable. We would all like to do,that, however, I have gifted only a portion of mine.

The difference is the OP doesn't want to pay any nursing home fees whatsoever, whereas I am am happy to pay mine,or at least a large chunk of them, if I have miscalculated and run out of money.

I have at least shown willing...........

Re timescales I appreciate your argument, how can we know when or for how long care is likely to be needed.It is very much an unknown quantity.

How could we have known that Mynhusband would be paralysed from the neck down by the time he was 55. Prior to his illness he was a sports mad Mr Fitness. His illness came out of the blue.

I can only work on what ive learned, from both my husband who had a degenerative neurological illness and my mum who suffered a series of strokes which triggered vascular dementia. I think I can speak with a little authority now.

Realistically, even with Alzheimer's the sufferer is not going to need nursing care straight from day one of becoming symtomatic, even if the progression was rapid.

Neither my mother or Mynhusband needed immediate nursing care, both were looked after at home for several years. Mum was in care for 18 months, my husband for just over 2 years, roughly the average time for most patients, although of course some may need longer.

But back to the discussion about money.....

I estimate that in Todays terms I have 4 years funding. Costs will undoubtedly increase, but then so will my assets......

In addition to,leaving enough to buy myself a small property, I will also be buying a couple of BTLs, for both additional income and future long term capital growth. The growth from those would be in addition to my current 4 years worth of funding.

Over time, assuming ive done this early enough, that growth will outstrip the amount I have given to my sons.

Whilst none of us has a crystal ball and yes I could get sick tomorrow, realistically I think I am young enough and healthy enough not to be overly concerned about nursing homes just yet.

Pollycat

Great reply, lessonlearned. :T

Of course there is a big difference between your attitide and that of the OP.

lessonlearned

Thanks Polly.

Ive tried to do the decent thing, to help my kids whilst also being a responsible citizen......

Ive done the best I can, if my calculations are wrong and the funding falls short and the State does have to step in then it is likely to be a relatively small amount.

In years to come there are going to be a lot of people who will not have a property to selL. It makes you wonder what wil happen then.

SevenOfNine

lessonlearned wrote: »

By this time I had racked up £30k, thanks to our caring system, which left us practically destitute, no income over 18 months. thanks DWP........And of course I had had to buy a lot of his equipment, stair lift, wheelchairs etc and make adaptations to our home. thanks social services......
.

......and yet you did't sound quite as thrilled to be paying for everything yourself at that time! Clearly assessed as being able to but you didn't seem to have wholeheartedly agreed.

I can't sit in judgement of OP quite so easily. They, like you, seem to want to "look after their offspring", but apparently have only the value of their home with which to do so. Correct prioritisation - perhaps not, but this thread has taken on a definite 'don't do as I do' tone about it.

missbiggles1

lessonlearned wrote: »

So here's the master plan, the basics were discussed and agreed between OH and I, it was up to me to fine tune the detail, work out a plan of attack and put it all into action.

It was broken down into stages.

He went into a Nursing home. I sold the Spanish property, then the family home. I cleared all our debts.

By this time I had racked up £30k, thanks to our caring system, which left us practically destitute, no income over 18 months. thanks DWP........And of course I had had to buy a lot of his equipment, stair lift, wheelchairs etc and make adaptations to our home. thanks social services......

Anyhoo, Then I moved DS2 and I into rented accommodation, found a property for DS1 who was also renting. Gifted DS1 the deposit and renovation budget.

DS2 moved in with his brother. I couldn't face living on a building site so I rented a small bungalow within the nursing home comlplex which meant I could be nearer to my husband and be more or less at his side most of the day.

Found a house for DS2 gifted him a deposit and a renovation budget.

My darling husband then died.

I moved in with DS2 and helped him with the renovations. I am currently still living with DS2 and have just started thinking about looking for my own house. I have been delayed due to my mums recent death.

The very last words my husband signalled to me (using his alphabet boaed) were "look after the boys".

I'm proud to say I have done exactly that, whilst at the same time keeping back enough money to secure my own financial future and ensure that there would be enough money to fund my own nursing home fees should the need arise.

It has taken me two years, two spells in rented accommodation, and some time living with my youngest son, none of which have been any great hardship.

I don't mind moving house, ,it doesnt faze me. I just roll up my sleeves and get on with it.

It has of course meant living like a gypsy for the past two years but who cares....the end will more than justify the means.

I have provided my sons with funds when they needed it most and given them a leg up onto the property ladder. I will have a secure financial future.

Its not the retirement my husband and I had planned but I will be happy and can build a good future for myself.

I won't be a financial burden on either my kids or the State.

At current prices my money and assets should fund nursing hime fees for about 4 years.

That should be enough, and if I don't need to go into care, then the boys can have the lot with my blessing. :rotfl:

Alls well that ends well.....

Just edited to,add....

I think in a way we 60 something's are probably the first generation to have to,think about these issues.

My parents generation never expected to live until their 90s and probably never even contemplated the need for nursing homes. They just blithely assumed they would get old, die and their estates would pass to their children. Many of them have been shocked by the reality of extreme old age.

We at least have had the benefit of seeing a glimpse of own futures by looking at the issues facing our elderly parents. This does give us the opportunity to plan effectively.

Whether or not we take the opportunity given to us is another matter.

As you say Polly there will always be those who want to have their cake and eat it.

Comparatively few people of our parents' generation had estates to pass on.

Andypandyboy

SevenOfNine wrote: »

......and yet you did't sound quite as thrilled to be paying for everything yourself at that time! Clearly assessed as being able to but you didn't seem to have wholeheartedly agreed.

I can't sit in judgement of OP quite so easily. They, like you, seem to want to "look after their offspring", but apparently have only the value of their home with which to do so. Correct prioritisation - perhaps not, but this thread has taken on a definite 'don't do as I do' tone about it.

I agree, having paid masses of tax as a couple over the years we will certainly be making sure that we gift as necessary and use all legal means to ringfence as much as possible of our assets.

I understand that this will be deprivation of assets, but I am quite comfortable with that. I won't sit in judgement of the OP either.

missbiggles1

SevenOfNine wrote: »

......and yet you did't sound quite as thrilled to be paying for everything yourself at that time! Clearly assessed as being able to but you didn't seem to have wholeheartedly agreed.

I can't sit in judgement of OP quite so easily. They, like you, seem to want to "look after their offspring", but apparently have only the value of their home with which to do so. Correct prioritisation - perhaps not, but this thread has taken on a definite 'don't do as I do' tone about it.

I feel like I can because I wouldn't want to "look after" my children in that way, having made sacrifices to give them a good education and the best preparation for life I could.

I'd rather give the money to charity where it's really needed, although I do appreciate that this is a minority viewpoint.

zygurat789

Andypandyboy wrote: »

I agree, having paid masses of tax as a couple over the years we will certainly be making sure that we gift as necessary and use all legal means to ringfence as much as possible of our assets.

I understand that this will be deprivation of assets, but I am quite comfortable with that. I won't sit in judgement of the OP either.

But once deprivation of assets has been proved surely the authorities can take steps to undo those transactions and ensure that their bill is paid.
Would that mean throwing the cghildren out of their homes so that they can be sold?