Atheist and the nativity

peachyprice

erichamster wrote: »

Oh really? Why don't you believe in the moon landings?

I'm not going there, this is not the time or place :rotfl::rotfl:

MackemPunk

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I just don't get how anyone can believe in the Biblical god that created the whole universe just for us, to me that is a very arrogant idea, and things like this http://scaleofuniverse.com/
make my completely denounce any human focused creator.

To me the Judeo-Christian god is about as real as the ancient Norse/Roman/Greek gods

balletshoes

I was brought up in the Church of Scotland - I wasn't aware God made the universe for us? I was taught he made the universe and everything in it, but I don't recall being taught it was all for us.

(however I will admit that I may well have been taught it was all for us, but I may have switched off completely as I had a tendency to do throughout all sermons and most Sunday school lessons lol).

erichamster

peachyprice wrote: »

I'm not going there, this is not the time or place :rotfl::rotfl:

Aw please? I've never met anyone who was really convinced that they didn't happen, but it was covered on QI recently so I was aware that there are people who don't. I don't know much about it really so would be interested in your reasoning.

fawd1

I was brought up as a Catholic and although I am non practicing and have some HUGE doubts about the validity of religion as a whole (at the end of the day what is written in any religious text, has been written by humans and as such must be fallible as we all are) BUT, I actually find it really quite offensive that people keep referring to religions, especially here Christianity, as fairy stories and nonsense. First off, the nativity story can't be described as a fairy tale as it's been historically proven that Jesus did in fact exist, was born in Bethlehem etc etc. The only part of the story up for debate is whether or not you believe him to be the son of God.
Secondly, if you're celebrating Christmas, then whatever pagan, nordic or other festival that Christmas took over (in regards to date) has absolutely no bearing. Christmas may take place at the time of other previous festivals, but the fact is, that it is there to celebrate the birth of Christ. No other reason. If you think Christ being born is a fairy story (?) then don't celebrate it, but don't get annoyed that others wish to acknowledge the festival for what it is, a celebration of the birth of Christ.

KxMx

PoorCharleyBear wrote: »

Not actively avoiding- it just never comes up in daily life. It is something I do not force onto my child, along with other things I believe (I don't eat meat, she does) but it was just a surprise that it seems to have featured highly in school. And I know that her little classmates are Muslims, Hindus and Catholic so featuring one religion seems strange.

I am happy to expose her to it- just do not want it to be forced on her as it was for us as children. We were dropped at church, while our parents went off and did other things.....

I expect the Muslim/Hindu festivals are all taught in class also. Usually Christmas is considered a christian thing so not sure where the surprise comes from this time of year

There is also nothing wrong with children being educated in religion so they can make up their own minds/learn about other cultures, just as the other faith classmates you mentioned are now learning about a christian festival.

I was forced to go to church suddenly too ages 8-10 so I know how you feel about that, we moved to the states and Nana was a Minister so of course all of a sudden we had to go every Sunday, from never going to every weekend was a shock to the system, I even had to do a weeks bible camp in the summer! But the parents had to go every sunday too lol.

erichamster

fawd1 wrote: »

I was brought up as a Catholic and although I am non practicing and have some HUGE doubts about the validity of religion as a whole (at the end of the day what is written in any religious text, has been written by humans and as such must be fallible as we all are) BUT, I actually find it really quite offensive that people keep referring to religions, especially here Christianity, as fairy stories and nonsense. First off, the nativity story can't be described as a fairy tale as it's been historically proven that Jesus did in fact exist, was born in Bethlehem etc etc. The only part of the story up for debate is whether or not you believe him to be the son of God.
Secondly, if you're celebrating Christmas, then whatever pagan, nordic or other festival that Christmas took over (in regards to date) has absolutely no bearing. Christmas may take place at the time of other previous festivals, but the fact is, that it is there to celebrate the birth of Christ. No other reason. If you think Christ being born is a fairy story (?) then don't celebrate it, but don't get annoyed that others wish to acknowledge the festival for what it is, a celebration of the birth of Christ.

What makes you think you have a right not to be offended?
Also why do you care so much if you are by your own admission, not a practising memeber, and therefore not a member at all, of any religion.

Of course the other winter festivals have a bearing, in terms of the age of humanity, humans have been celebrating various things at winter time, often relating to a sun god figure, for a very long time, Jesus just happens to be the one in vogue at the moment.

I certainly don't celebrate the birth of christ, (and if I did I certainly wouldn't choose the 25th Dec as the time to do as this was most certainly not when he was born and was simply a date stolen from earlier solstice related festivals), I do however, give gifts, have a dinner, decorate a tree etc, none of which are traditions christianity can lay any claim to.

balletshoes

fawd1 wrote: »

I was brought up as a Catholic and although I am non practicing and have some HUGE doubts about the validity of religion as a whole (at the end of the day what is written in any religious text, has been written by humans and as such must be fallible as we all are) BUT, I actually find it really quite offensive that people keep referring to religions, especially here Christianity, as fairy stories and nonsense.
First off, the nativity story can't be described as a fairy tale as it's been historically proven that Jesus did in fact exist, was born in Bethlehem etc etc. The only part of the story up for debate is whether or not you believe him to be the son of God.
Secondly, if you're celebrating Christmas, then whatever pagan, nordic or other festival that Christmas took over (in regards to date) has absolutely no bearing. Christmas may take place at the time of other previous festivals, but the fact is, that it is there to celebrate the birth of Christ. No other reason. If you think Christ being born is a fairy story (?) then don't celebrate it, but don't get annoyed that others wish to acknowledge the festival for what it is, a celebration of the birth of Christ.

I'm not sure that precludes the nativity from being titled a fairy tale though. After all, Father Christmas comes from St Nicholas, who also has been proven to have existed.
If Jesus existed, maybe its the whole rest of it (ie immaculate conception, baby born in a stable with wise men, shepherds etc following a star to find him and bring him gifts etc etc) that could be thought of as a fairy tale, or just a story?

I don't think its offensive at all to think of the nativity as a story that some people believe. How is that a wrong way to convey the nativity story to a young child? They love stories at that age.

balletshoes

erichamster wrote: »

What makes you think you have a right not to be offended?
Also why do you care so much if you are by your own admission, not a practising memeber, and therefore not a member at all, of any religion.

Of course the other winter festivals have a bearing, in terms of the age of humanity, humans have been celebrating various things at winter time, often relating to a sun god figure, for a very long time, Jesus just happens to be the one in vogue at the moment.

I certainly don't celebrate the birth of christ, (and if I did I certainly wouldn't choose the 25th Dec as the time to do as this was most certainly not when he was born and was simply a date stolen from earlier solstice related festivals),
I do however, give gifts, have a dinner, decorate a tree etc, none of which are traditions christianity can lay any claim to.

thats a very good point I feel, and is what the majority of people I'd imagine think is the meaning of Christmas these days (how about I call it Xmas instead, does that make it more palatable?).

daska

erichamster wrote: »

This interests me, does everyone think we choose our beliefs or lack of beliefs about deities?
I would be inclined to say no as I really don't think I could choose to believe in a god now (even if I wanted to), I just don't and however hard I tried to make my mind up to just believe I never truly would if that makes sense.

I think our beliefs or non beliefs come largely from our upbringing and probably mostly from our parents, as well as friends, education, society etc as we growing up.

I think you can decide to stop believing and live your life according to evidence, but I don't think you can decide to believe in something you don't.

Person_one wrote: »

Its even more simple than that. There is no need to mention choice or reasoning in the definitions.

A theist believes in one or more deities, usually a particular religion.

An atheist does not believe in any deities or religion.

An agnostic believes that it is impossible to know if there are any deities or not.

I choose to believe that belief is a choice.



Incidentally, I remember seeing study reported on a program on identical twins which indicated that being 'religious' might be an inheritable trait - not solely to do with upbringing or culture.