lpg delivered by mistake!!!

mc33033

G_M wrote: »

Under the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971, (as amended) it is an offence to demand payment for goods known to be unsolicited, in other words, they were sent to a person without any prior request made by them or on their behalf.

The company representative did not intentionally give gas unsolicited. Therefore a consumer cannot rely on this to stand up in court. That legislation is inappropriate to quote as there was an order made, the company believed they were fulfilling the order but made a mistake. No judge is going to believe that the gas company did this to try and get extra sales, they will see it as the consumer taking a chance to get some free gas by misquoting legislation.

The company could take the consumer to court as the consumer has been "unjustly enriched" and it would be reasonable to expect a ruling that the consumer pays the cost price of the gas. Not the retail price.

So if the OP is going to be able to use the gas that was delivered then they should offer to pay the wholesale price of the gas.

HateLPG

mc33033 wrote: »

The company could take the consumer to court as the consumer has been "unjustly enriched" and it would be reasonable to expect a ruling that the consumer pays the cost price of the gas. Not the retail price.

So if the OP is going to be able to use the gas that was delivered then they should offer to pay the wholesale price of the gas.

This all sounds eminently reasonable - I don't think it was ever the OP's intention to try to get something for nothing, but he was deeply concerned as to how much he could expect to be charged, having received an unsolicited delivery.

So, taking your sugestion the OP pays the wholesale cost of the delivered gas, the December 2012 Argus North Sea Index for Butane stands at $804/tonne. With a bit of basic maths, this gives a figure of 29.83ppl, based on the prevailing exchange rate as of 1st December.

There is, of course, still the knotty problem of proving (to the satisfaction of a court), exactly how much gas was actually delivered. If we work on the assumption that it was 392litres (as quoted by the OP in http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=49223399&postcount=12) and the OP is happy to accept that, then that would give a total wholesale cost for the gas of £116.91.

Based on that, and on your comments, I would think that the OP should perhaps take the initiative and make a "reasonable offer" of say £120. If Flogas accept this, then everything is nicely sorted (and the OP has got a jolly good deal); If Flogas refuse, and initiate legal action, it will reflect very badly on them in court that they have rejected a reasonable offerand will certainly not endear any judge to their cause.

longforgotten

So the gas was delivered on 7 December.......an invoice, if it is indeed going to be sent out, will be turning up soon.

I'm hoping they see the mistake and don't send out an invoice. After all who do they invoice it to if there is no contract.

Who would they address it to 'the occupier'.

It would make them look very stupid.

TBomb_2

Hi all,

Very disgruntled here, recieved a letter on friday for a bill of the gas.. Now today I recieve a letter from flogas telling me they are coming to disconnect my supply on or around the 22nd december!! Yes it was addressed to "The occupier" I have rtang them and found the foriegn person on the other end of the line to be extremely unhelpful telling me I have to pay and will not take any responsibilty and will not pass me higher to a manager. As it stands they are still going to cut me off, however he did offer to cap my tank (i.e. cut it off) as I dont want to use their gas..They will not come and get the gas back only cut me off if I dont pay... Not willing to negotiate on price or even talk to me fairly... I need to know who I can get to fight on my behalf or who to resonably contact to sort this out!!!!

LittleVermin

TBomb wrote: »

Hi all,

Very disgruntled here, recieved a letter on friday for a bill of the gas.. Now today I recieve a letter from flogas telling me they are coming to disconnect my supply on or around the 22nd december!!
<snip>
I need to know who I can get to fight on my behalf or who to resonably contact to sort this out!!!!

Trading Standards. ASAP. I'd go with a (brief!) written-out timeline of what's happened.

If Trading Standards are no help (we've had mixed reports on this forum) go to CAB.

If no Trading Standards or CAB nearby, or contactable, some law firms offer first half-hour free, for advice.

Good luck.

..

TBomb_2

OK.

Spoke to trading standards who were pretty flimsy, suggesting I contact FLOGAS in wiritng asking for proof of order and proof of contract and until resolution to suspend payment. It seems as though they have no right to enter my property as I have no contract with them. However I don't feel as though FLOGAS seem to understand this, I am now waiting for a call back from them to see what they will come up with next.

LittleVermin

TBomb wrote: »

OK.

Spoke to trading standards who were pretty flimsy, suggesting I contact FLOGAS in wiritng asking for proof of order and proof of contract and until resolution to suspend payment. It seems as though they have no right to enter my property as I have no contract with them. However I don't feel as though FLOGAS seem to understand this, I am now waiting for a call back from them to see what they will come up with next.

Sorry Trading Standards weren't much help. Flogas could easily cut you off, as threatened.

The LPG tank is, of course, not your property but belongs to Flogas. And you only rent the house - so have you put your landlord in the picture? He/she will (I presume!) have had a contract with Flogas or otherwise there'd be no Flogas tank in the garden, and this contract may give Flogas access at all times so long as they own the tank. My contract includes "The customer will at all times permit XXXXX or a representative of the company to enter upon the property (or the property in which the vessel should be situated) to inspect the XXXXX instllations, fittings and vessels therein." Flogas will also probably have had a right to terminate the contract, remove their property, etc. This makes it all the more necessary to speak to your landlord and get a copy of the contract.

I'd contact CAB ASAP.

I'd make ALL your contact with Flogas by email. Letters get bogged down / go astray at this time of year, but whether by email or letter you need a record.

Who's your MP? He/she may have a surgery before Christmas. It's quite possible they have had dealings with LPG companies before - mine has! - and Flogas won't want their name brought up in Parliament, and recorded (see several posts by HateLPG in the last 2 months).

HateLPG

TBomb wrote: »

Very disgruntled here, recieved a letter on friday for a bill of the gas.. Now today I recieve a letter from flogas telling me they are coming to disconnect my supply on or around the 22nd december!!

Well, I have to say, I am more than a little appalled and surprised by the turn of events. Flogas appear to be excelling themselves on this one!

Anyway, while I could witter on at length and make any number of obvious suggestions, it seems to me that given the complexity of the situation, and Flogas' apparent unreasonableness and intransigence, that you need to get the right advice and you need to get it fast.

My suggestion would be to get proper legal advice that you can rely on as soon as you possibly can. My experience with CAB (admittedly some years back now) is that while they are wholly well intentioned, it can take an age to get definitive and reliable advice. Things may have changed, of course, but to be honest even if CAB can give you quick answers you will probably need to hit Flogas with something very much stronger than "CAB have advised me that x y z........"

I would also underline LIttleVermin's suggestion that from now on you communicate with Flogas *ONLY* in writing; There are many reasons for this, all obvious, and having an indisputable record of what was said when and to whom will prove invaluable if the matter escalates. I have just had a look over a recent Flogas contract, and (unlike some other contracts) they do not define what the "acceptable" methods of written communication are. If (as LittleVermin suggests) you opt for e-mail, remember to set the options to request a return receipt and a Delivery Status Notification. These aren't foolproof (the recipient can usually choose not to send them) but if you DO get a receipt back, make sure you save it! If you really want to go belt and braces, you should also send copies of everything by signed-for postal delivery as a backup, and again, make sure you keep the postal receipts and save the proofs of delivery which are available online.

Once you have got things moving in terms of protecting your immediate position, there are a number of other things that I suggest would be useful if you can possibly find the time:

1. Make a formal complaint to Trading Standards via Consumer Direct. Sadly, Trading Standards is no longer a terribly "customer facing" institution, and they really are not geared up to handle one-off complaints these days. It seems that they like to collect evidence of "systematic malpractice" before actually embarking on any enforcement action. So, it's important that you DO contact them in order that they can add your tale of woe to any other complaints they may have about Flogas, but don't expect immediate direct action in support of your specific problem;
2. Write to your MP and send a copy of your letter to Charles Hendry (Minister of State (Renewable Energy), Energy and Climate Change); As you may be aware, Off-Mains energy supply is currently under the microscope following the recent (sadly rather weak and ineffectual) OFT study. But there is still an important job to do in educating and lobbying MPs to make them realise the issues present in this market;
3. Write directly to the OFT and give them chapter and verse. I have it on good authority that while their recent report may appear weak, they are nevertheless extremely keen to hear directly from consumers. Where they see evidence of specific problems and illustrations of misbehaviour / malpractice on the part of the suppliers, they will use such input to develop and target there strategies in the area of enforcement of consumer law.

I'll leave it there for now - that's probably enough to be getting your teeth into. Good luck, and please keep us posted on developments if at all possible.

LittleVermin

HateLPG wrote: »

<snip>

you need to get the right advice and you need to get it fast.

My suggestion would be to get proper legal advice that you can rely on as soon as you possibly can. My experience with CAB (admittedly some years back now) is that while they are wholly well intentioned, it can take an age to get definitive and reliable advice. Things may have changed, of course, but to be honest even if CAB can give you quick answers you will probably need to hit Flogas with something very much stronger than "CAB have advised me that x y z........"
<snip>

If you've a CAB locally - and it's open tomorrow a.m. - I'd still try there first. Solicitors vary greatly in their areas of competence and CAB should be able to advise you which one to go to (if that is indeed the best course of action).

but also see my post in the main Bulk LPG thread..

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LittleVermin

TBomb wrote: »

<snip>

..............I have to pay and will not take any responsibilty and will not pass me higher to a manager. As it stands they are still going to cut me off, however he did offer to cap my tank (i.e. cut it off) as I dont want to use their gas..They will not come and get the gas back only cut me off if I dont pay... Not willing to negotiate on price or even talk to me fairly... I need to know who I can get to fight on my behalf or who to resonably contact to sort this out!!!!

The Flogas website might be useful:

http://www.flogas.co.uk/38/contact-us

You might also find some useful info here:

http://www.lpgasmagazine.co.uk/people/New-Flogas-Hires.htm

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