Good luck to state workers picketing today

grizzly1911

The public sector employees themselves are not to blame for the pensions schemes. Their employers, ultimately successive governments, have established the schemes and the overall remuneration of staff.

Yes there probably need for further reform but as late as 2008, the last reorganisation in the NHS, their scheme was deemed affordable. Wonder what has changed in the last 3 years, it certainly isn't a quantumn leap forward in life expectancy.

There are certainly some non jobs and some over bureaucracy that can go through greater efficiency.

When this goes through ultimately it will cause all sorts of unforeseen consequences.

All pension provision needs to be reviewed.

If the private or public sector can't provide adequate pension provision then the only people that will take up the shortfall will be the taxpayers.

Shaving a couple of grand off the end result won't help if that is just transferred on to benefits and care arrangements because individuals don't have sufficient pension or savings.

Many of the real jobs performed in the public sector would still have to be replicated by the private sector and limit the savings to the taxpayer.

I am lucky to have a relatively good private sector pension but I certainly don't expect it to be my only provision in later life. I have gone without some luxuries along the way to make that happen. Many live for the day and don't provide, in any way shape or form for anything, yet I still have to pay tax and VAT to the pot.

There are lots of things I don't want to pay for but have no choice because some politician degrees they want to.

In all my working life tax has never reduced and this isn't going to happen now just because the public sector workers are to pay more now.

It is getting to the point where many of the lower paid may as well opt out and take their chances at the end.

A cap on maximum pensions were proposed in some quarters of £50K pa, perhaps this discussion should be reopened too. Wouldn't work of course because those sort of recipients would have the ability to man oeuvre round it.

drc

Do ponzi schemes ever work? No. The public sector pension is a giant ponzi scheme. Why, therefore, is it wrong when Madoff does it but ok when Brown does it?

paulmapp8306

ILW wrote: »

We keep hearing about nurses, firemen, soldiers etc. Does anybody know what percentage of the public sector falls into these categories that may find working longer difficult, as opposed to those that are basically in sedentary positions.

Dont count soldiers. Officers serve longer should they wish but most of the rest work for a 22 years career before being kicked out. Some extend to 24 a very few have the option of further service. Forces pensions give compensation for this in the form of a "resettlement grant" which despite its name is nothing to do with resettlement. Its a lump sum compensation for not being offered a full 37 years career.

Also - Forces personal dont make ANY personal contributions to their pensions.

grizzly1911

lostinrates wrote: »

I'm not prepared to name the, but I know of them...not coast guards though:). My father was a director of one until recently that had a fire service, a ''small army'' of body guards and a larger one of security personel, a further security operation operating much like a police force......

Many do provide at least parts of this in addition to the state for obvious reasons. However, will they have been willing to police and provide a fire service to all of their workforce 24/7*365, probably not.

julieq

Graham_Devon wrote: »

That's it?

You have a good deal on duel fuel compared to what? The other deals available at the moment? Whoopie for you. Fact is, we still need to offer winter payments to those on benefits just so they don't freeze, insulation to those on benefits and old age to keep their bills lower. Solar to keep bills lower...ALL at PUBLIC cost. How many other countries do this!?

Cars work better? Fantastic. Thats technology.

Trains run btter on time. They may do. But they are actively pricing people out of getting to work, and they are, actually hitting new records of overcrowding each year.

Seriously. Give me one private sector takeover that has made things cheaper and better for us all.

BT.

I mean I think I gave some good ones anyway, but not being a debt junky I can't be bothered to check the numbers.

CLAPTON

drc wrote: »

Do ponzi schemes ever work? No. The public sector pension is a giant ponzi scheme. Why, therefore, is it wrong when Madoff does it but ok when Brown does it?

all pension schemes are ponzi scheme i.e. they are resourced from the current working population
as are all health care schemes
as are all education schemes
as are all holidays, nights out, food production, transport and distribution

just think about the fact that all goods and services are provided by the current working population, with it's, the true support of the investment goods produced by the previously working population

tomterm8

I think people might be confused about what a ponzi scheme actually is.

Graham_Devon

julieq wrote: »

BT.

I mean I think I gave some good ones anyway, but not being a debt junky I can't be bothered to check the numbers.

You seem to have reverted to sillyness, rather than your long posts.

Can't think why!

There is massive wastage in the public sector. That cannot be denied.

the private sector may stamp out the wastage, however, it's been shown that thjey also then create massive profits at the expense of us all. Not once has it been shown that once the wastage is stamped out, it becomes chaper or better for us all. It just becomes more expensive which leads then to employing public sector bodies to raise their eyeborws and suggest its wrong, but do nothing.

We've got the taxpayer stumping up working tax credits so that employers can continue paying poor wages. New rebates from the taxpayer to south west water companies, while south west water announce inflation busting increases in proft. Many taxpayer funded sums of money paid out to the nation so they can afford to put the gas on. BT isn't fantastic in the slightest, we are behind nearly every european country in terms of comms, yet used to score pretty highly, and everytime they need to invest, they hold out their caps and say they need money from the taxpayer, as this will benefit them....but they keep ALL profits. We've now got the landline tax, with a promise to hit targets in 2011, and none of those targets have been met. not too long back it looked a possibility that we may have to bail BT out completely. So it's an odd one to suggest as an example.

julieq

To be honest Graham, pretty much every privatised variant of a nationalised enterprise I can think of anywhere in the world works more efficiently and better. Would anyone seriously go back to a state monopoly on phone provision now? Or back to British Leyland? It's difficult to do like for like comparisons on energy costs because of the increase of costs generally, but certainly it's cheaper than it would be if we had a state monopoly.

But where do you think these "massive profits" actually go anyway? They don't just disappear into the pockets of some fat banker, they go to pay returns on investments, most usually pension funds. The desire for profit growth tends to create efficiency. Now obviously it's not always the case that it works, but if you admit there is waste in the public sector then surely any means of removing that is better. If the public sector has to compete with the private sector on a bid, it has a built in advantage because it doesn't have to generate a profit. But we should allow the competition, and not rule it out because of an emotional distaste for the idea of "profit"

grizzly1911

If BT so successful why is its share price crashed so woefully low.

In a previous business life I had many dealings with BT/Openreach nationwide post If the level of obduracy I encountered was good then it must have been dead before.

Personally I have never had a problem with BT or TT since I swapped for a more encompassing cheaper tariff. Not exactly rocket science.

As for BL that was the start of the countries decimation. Whilst British Industry suffered appalling investment in automated production and new machinery Germany and Japan raced ahead, with our help, after rebuilding there economies. It wasn't all the fault of the Unions and the labour force.

Of course the British public were happy to lap up those imports and the ones that have followed - one of the reasons we are having this debate today.

Funnily enough those old Datsun 120Ys weren't that much better at the time either. Certainly bodies corroded too. But as GD says there have been massive leap forwards in manufacturing processes since.

Funny how Honda, Toyota and Nissan were happy to build factories here with our terrible workers.