MSE News: Orange to raise monthly mobile costs

DUTR

burnleymik wrote: »

I think it's wonderful to see how many people are standing up and fighting this, unfortunately I doubt we will get anywhere, but we must continue to voice our frustration about the rise and the way it has all been handled.

For me personally I will see out my contract and never use Orange again and I hope many others will do the same. We must get the message out that treating existing customers like this is simply wrong, especially when you are tied into such long term contracts.

I have sent my emails and made an unsuccessful phonecall so far.

Great work so far to those who are fighting, keep it going!

You are more than likely correct, but gosh will it make you unpopular for spouting the truth

Steve__M_3

fairnessfighter wrote: »

I, like many people here, am furious with Orange for the recently announced price hike. So I phoned to ask a few questions.

But worse still, I asked for more detail on the price hike and was informed that the rise will be applied to the base tariff but NOT to any discounts that form part of the account.

So for example:

In April this year you took out a £30 dolphin tariff with Orange on a 2 year contract.

You were awarded a £5 loyalty discount (for being a faithful customer over the past few years) and a further £2 web-saver discount for ordering online.

This means you expected to be paying £23 per month for the next two years. That is what you agreed because that was what you could afford.

Now you are told (by text) your contract will rise by 4.34%

So a quick calculation will tell you that from the New Year you can expect to pay £24 per month (£23.9982 to be precise).

Well you'd be wrong. Because Orange just told me (and only because I asked) that they would inflate the base rate of the tariff but NOT the discounts applied. Therefore:

(£30*1.0434) - £5 - £2 = £24.30 is what you would ACTUALLY pay.

That is an inflation of 5.66% which is well above the RPI as measured in October. And even further above the average 5.23% increase in the RPI since you took out the contract at the beginning of April. And, anyway, why is Orange using the higher RPI when the government uses the lower CPI to measure inflation?

This is inherently unfair, and whilst it is hard to argue that a few pounds a year is of 'material detriment' to any individual many of us live to the very edge of our means which is why we plan our spending carefully and lock ourselves into fixed rate contracts to reduce outgoings. Combined with rapidly increasing living costs, cuts in tax credits and rising transport costs, for some it really could be the difference between surviving and falling off the edge.

But is there anything we can do?

I would say that if the discount forms part of your contract then your charges have increased by more than inflation. This would give you a potential right to cancel under 4.3 of the Orange terms, as term 4.3.1 that attempts to limit your rights no longer applies.

Steve__M_3

I think it's wonderful to see how many people are standing up and fighting this, unfortunately I doubt we will get anywhere, but we must continue to voice our frustration about the rise and the way it has all been handled.

Sometimes these battles take a long time, but people's complaints have led to big cuts in roaming charges, (some) protection for people who accidentally download data when abroad and get charged a fortune, better protection for people who get signed up to text services without realising it and so forth.

The armchair grumblers who can't resist telling you that you only have yourself to blame for not reading the small print etc. etc. might have a point, but every person who phones Orange takes up the time of an Orange representative and stops them making a sale to someone else. Every person who phones Ofcom raises the profile of this issue with Ofcom, and provides arguments for Ofcom to fight against the cuts that are likely to come its way.

So as someone said earlier:

To complain to ofcom:

www.ofcom.org.uk/contact-us/

Riverside House
2a Southwark Bridge Road
London
SE1 9HA
If you want advice or to complain to Ofcom please call us on 0300 123
3333 or 020 7981 3040. We are open Monday to Friday from 9.00am to
5.00pm.

nickscott

Steve__M wrote: »

I would say that if the discount forms part of your contract then your charges have increased by more than inflation. This would give you a potential right to cancel under 4.3 of the Orange terms, as term 4.3.1 that attempts to limit your rights no longer applies.

Surely the discounts form part of the contract under "offer and acceptance". These discounts come about while negotiating contract renewals and/or upgrades. They are offered to us and we accept therefore forming a contract. If the price rise exceeds the rate of inflation on what we actually pay I don't see how that is within their T&C.

ru20205

I have been with Orange for about 7 years now as a personal customer so was disapointed by this news. I think the main problem is that they have forced our hand on this issue rather than saying sorry 'we regret having to do this' and 'you can leave if you want too'. I think if they had given the option of leaving 99% of people wouldnt bother because the increase is a few pence rather than a few pounds in most cases so customers would be more forgiving but in not giving the option they have shot themselves in the foot a little as there are many loyal customers, myself included, who see this as a betrayal.

The funny thing is Orange didnt realise that i run the operations functions for my company and directly manage the mobile phone contracts and am in the process of sorting out renewing them. I have just put the phone down to my business manager with Orange and told him the business will be moving to Vodafone. When asked why i told him although the packages were the same in offerings, i felt betrayed as a personal customer and that has had a direct influence on my business decision to move away from them as i dont think they value loyalty that much. Orange have just lost a £100,000 mobile phone contract as a result! That should bite them in the backside a little!

Blue_nexus

Hi Folks,

I posted a few days days ago but as yet have had no replies.

Once again I would be grateful for any comments you may have relating to how the OFT does see an RPI increase as fair in contract clauses.

If this cannot be fully understood then Orange will have a water tight case surely ?

However if the OFT deems it fair but OFCOM do not (they have advised me that 9.6 should stand and I have the right to cancel on these grounds) which body holds the trump card ?

Blue_nexus wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Its my first post so be gentle. I've read through ever one of the 700+ posts here and like many of you I am annoyed by the orange price rise. I have noted a few posts that sited this may be an unfair contract term, so I done a little reading and came across unfair contract terms on the OFT website. (oft311.pdf)

Group 12 deals with Price variation clauses -

Schedule 2, paragraph 1, states that terms may be unfair if they
have the object or effect of:
(l) providing for the price of goods to be determined at the time of
delivery or allowing a seller of goods or supplier of services to
increase their price without in both cases giving the consumer the
corresponding right to cancel the contract if the final price is too
high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was
concluded.

12.1 The OFT's objections to variation clauses generally are set out under Group
10. If a contract is to be considered balanced, each party should be sure of
getting what they were promised in exchange for providing the
'consideration' they agreed to provide. A clause allowing the supplier to
increase the price – varying the most important of all of the consumer's
contractual obligations – has clear potential for unfairness.

12.2 Any purely discretionary right to set or vary a price after the consumer has
become bound to pay is obviously objectionable. That applies particularly to
terms allowing the supplier to charge a price on delivery of goods that is
not what was quoted to the consumer when the order was placed. It also
applies to rights to increase payments under continuing contracts where
consumers are 'captive' – that is, they have no penalty-free right to cancel.

12.3 A price variation clause is not necessarily fair just because is not
discretionary – for example, a right to increase prices to cover increased
costs experienced by the supplier. Suppliers are much better able to
anticipate and control changes in their own costs than consumers can
possibly be. In any case, such a clause is particularly open to abuse,
because consumers can have no reasonable certainty that the increases imposed on them actually match net cost increases.

12.4 A degree of flexibility in pricing may be achieved fairly in the following
ways.

• Where the level and timing of any price increases are specified (within
narrow limits if not precisely) they effectively form part of the agreed
price. As such they are acceptable, provided the details are clearly and
adequately drawn to the consumer's attention.

• Terms which permit increases linked to a relevant published price index
such as the RPI are likely to be acceptable, as paragraph 2 of Schedule
2 to the Regulations indicates, subject to the same proviso.

• Any kind of variation clause may in principle be fair if consumers are
free to escape its effects by ending the contract. To be genuinely free
to cancel, they must not be left worse off for having entered the
contract, whether by experiencing financial loss (for example, forfeiture
of a prepayment) or serious inconvenience, or any other adverse
consequences.

12.1 through to 12.3 would seem to argue that any price rise can be deemed as unfair. however 12.4 seems to state that a price rise linked to RPI is allowed ....

I am not in any way a legal mind and I'm struggling to understand this.

Like many of you I have phoned OFCOM and they have indicated that I am within my right to cancel. Orange take a different stance.

I am appalled at the way in which orange have communicated this price rise. To my mind a text is not acceptable, and the nature of this increase, legal or not is simply immoral. I for one will never be an orange customer again on point of principle, not just about the rise, but on the poor reception and poor training and attitude of the call center staff.

I would welcome your opinions on the OFT fair terms, if I can't fully understand legal arguments then I can't really fight my corner.

Guys_Dad

ru20205 wrote: »

I think if they had given the option of leaving 99% of people wouldnt bother because the increase is a few pence

I hope the Orange Business Manager reports the loss back to Head Office. I used to be in the same position as you now are with similar sized contracts. :beer:

On the quote above, though, I think you may be too honest and trusting for theis sub forum. :rotfl::rotfl: There are thousands of mobile addicts who scour the forum for any possible escape clauses so that they can get a new state of the art handset asap.

Loyalty? It seems from years of reading here that too many think it's something that a network owes them, not vice versa.

Guys_Dad

Blue_nexus wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I posted a few days days ago but as yet have had no replies.

Once again I would be grateful for any comments you may have relating to how the OFT does see an RPI increase as fair in contract clauses.

As I wrote, having a mid-contract annual price increase in a contract is perfectly legal in most instances - particularly in long-term contracts. The basis for this needs to be clearly stated.

What differentiates this particular case is that we have OFCOM and their much quoted clause re increases. It should, therefore, be up to them to use their muscle to adjudicate publicly, and not just telling people that they can dispute the increase one a one-to-one basis.

Action to be taken is simple and threefold.

1. Contact Orange with a version of the standard letter.
2. Contact OFCOM by email and complain about the increase.
3. Again contact OFCOM via their complaints web page and complain about OFCOM themselves failing to act when the networks included the price hike clauses in their contracts.

Another action is to contact OFCOM under Freedom of Information asking how many complaints they have had about the Orange increase. Again, if there have been sufficient, OFCOM will have egg on their face if they haven't acted when they said they might if sufficient objections have been received.

I have to be honest, however, I am not personally too worked up about the increase and do believe that if any one lesson should be learned by all contributors is "READ ALL THE SMALL PRINT BEFORE YOU SIGN".

:beer: to all.

simax

burnleymik wrote: »

For me personally I will see out my contract and never use Orange again and I hope many others will do the same.

So, when you move to, say, Vodafone and part way through they raise their prices, are you then going to say;

burnleymik wrote: »

For me personally I will see out my contract and never use Vodafone again and I hope many others will do the same.

And then when you move to O2 and they do the same, will you then say;

burnleymik wrote: »

For me personally I will see out my contract and never use O2 again and I hope many others will do the same.

... and so on? If they all start doing it are you going to stop using a mobile?

I think you're cutting your nose off to spite your face.

If you were not happy with the clause in your contract about prices going up by no more than RPI, then why did you agree to it?

All networks have this clause.

Funny, when Vodafone and O2 did similar earlier this year, no-one batted an eyelid, even though Vodafones increase in real terms is close to 6.2%!

sellers0208

fairnessfighter wrote: »

I, like many people here, am furious with Orange for the recently announced price hike. So I phoned to ask a few questions.

They claim the hike is in line with (in fact they go to great lengths to point out that it is less than) the increase in the RPI. Although they compare it only to the most recent rate of inflation (5.4%) measured in October which - barring February (5.5%) and September (5.6%) - is the highest it has been all year.

However, as the helpful customer services representative pointed out when I questioned him he will not be getting a pay rise this year in line with inflation (or even in line with the 4.34% that Orange plans to inflate its income). So where will that money go? Into the pockets of its senior management team, no doubt.

But worse still, I asked for more detail on the price hike and was informed that the rise will be applied to the base tariff but NOT to any discounts that form part of the account.

So for example:

In April this year you took out a £30 dolphin tariff with Orange on a 2 year contract.

You were awarded a £5 loyalty discount (for being a faithful customer over the past few years) and a further £2 web-saver discount for ordering online.

This means you expected to be paying £23 per month for the next two years. That is what you agreed because that was what you could afford.

Now you are told (by text) your contract will rise by 4.34%

So a quick calculation will tell you that from the New Year you can expect to pay £24 per month (£23.9982 to be precise).

Well you'd be wrong. Because Orange just told me (and only because I asked) that they would inflate the base rate of the tariff but NOT the discounts applied. Therefore:

(£30*1.0434) - £5 - £2 = £24.30 is what you would ACTUALLY pay.

That is an inflation of 5.66% which is well above the RPI as measured in October. And even further above the average 5.23% increase in the RPI since you took out the contract at the beginning of April. And, anyway, why is Orange using the higher RPI when the government uses the lower CPI to measure inflation?

This is inherently unfair, and whilst it is hard to argue that a few pounds a year is of 'material detriment' to any individual many of us live to the very edge of our means which is why we plan our spending carefully and lock ourselves into fixed rate contracts to reduce outgoings. Combined with rapidly increasing living costs, cuts in tax credits and rising transport costs, for some it really could be the difference between surviving and falling off the edge.

But is there anything we can do?

can you help see if my account has the same ufair price increase please as i'm completely useless at figures, money etc....
this is what i'm on - dolphin 40 for 18 months. (this plan doesnt even exist anymore)

your plan and bundles 34.04
extras and discounts -3.40
additional usage and costs 7.88

Total charges for this month excluding VAT £38.52

VAT at 20.00% on £35.52 7.10

Total charges for this month including VAT £45.62

£3.40 is my loyalty discount of 10%.

thanks for your help!! i'm waiting on my 2nd email back from orange now, and feel that i'm in need of more reasons to cancel!
thanks