Student Debt on MoneyBox Live BBC4 RUBBISH!!

setmefree2

The_One_Who wrote: »

And yet you still don't seem to understand that for the vast majority of people the loan will be their only option.

And yet you still don't seem to understand that is not a reason to support something ......

Why do you think people took out endowments - it was because they had no choice! Why do you think people took out subprime mortgages - it was because they had no choice!

Just because people have no choice doesn't make something a good deal.....YOU can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, not that it has stopped brothers Martin and Paul Lewis and David Willetts from trying.

setmefree2

The_One_Who wrote: »

If you can afford to pay up front and feel that is the best for your family situation then great, but you have to realise that you are in a minority.

Do you think I enjoy watching my kids and their friends getting stitched up??? Maybe if some of the student loan cheerleaders on this board actually had some kids going to Uni in 2012 then you might actually know how we feel?

The_One_Who

setmefree2 wrote: »

And yet you still don't seem to understand that is not a reason to support something ......

Of course not, but you need to understand that we are all working within a structure and a system that is not ideal. That goes for everything, not just student loans. Unless you can suggest (and properly pitch) a solution or a better idea then we all need to learn to work within it for our own circumstances. Again, the minority will be able to pay upfront, everyone else has two choices: take the loan or don't go to university. That is of course excluding the options of part-time study (not always available), distance learning (not always available or ideal), or the working/saving option which is less of an option now than it was.

As an aside, you also really need to learn how to multi-quote. Double, triple or even more multi-posting is not cool.

Oldernotwiser

setmefree2 wrote: »

Do you think I enjoy watching my kids and their friends getting stitched up??? Maybe if some of the student loan cheerleaders on this board actually had some kids going to Uni in 2012 then you might actually know how we feel?

Nobody is "cheerleading" for student loans - I've made it very clear that I believe that we should have far fewer people going to university but far better funded.

However, in the real world of 2012 there is no alternative for the vast majority of students who want (or need) to go to university full time. Making a lot of fuss about the fact that you have many thousands of pounds available to you to pay student fees up front for a couple of children may make you feel big but it is miles away from the majority of people who have no such option.

My only concern is that children from normal families won't be put off from going to university by misunderstanding and scaremongering about current funding. It's always been the case that the wealthy have tried to discourage (if not stop) those from poorer families from getting an education and it seems that this attitude is alive and kicking on this thread!

Lokolo

setmefree2 wrote: »

Do you think I enjoy watching my kids and their friends getting stitched up??? Maybe if some of the student loan cheerleaders on this board actually had some kids going to Uni in 2012 then you might actually know how we feel?

Why should it matter how you feel? You're not the one going to university! Or taking on the debt!

You were planning on helping your DS/DD with fees, why can't you just give them the money and let them make up their own mind? By all means, give them advice where they can choose to ignore you or not, but don't make them do something just because you don't think its right.

2sides2everystory

Lokolo wrote: »

Why should it matter how you feel? You're not the one going to university! Or taking on the debt!

You were planning on helping your DS/DD with fees, why can't you just give them the money and let them make up their own mind? By all means, give them advice where they can choose to ignore you or not, but don't make them do something just because you don't think its right.

Now this shows naivety.

Why do you think that most UCAS applicants are still living with their parents, Lokolo? When one gets to 18 or end of year 13 or some other arbitrary cut-off does one instantaneously become a perfectly functioning autonomous economic unit or does one sometimes still appreciate strong and trustworthy guidance from somewhere close to home?

The_One_Who

I think there is a difference between guidance and effectively forcing your view on someone.

If someone is going to university they should be able to research this issue and make up their own mind and make their own choice as to whether or not they want to take the loan.

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Now this shows naivety.

Why do you think that most UCAS applicants are still living with their parents, Lokolo? When one gets to 18 or end of year 13 or some other arbitrary cut-off does one instantaneously become a perfectly functioning autonomous economic unit or does one sometimes still appreciate strong and trustworthy guidance from somewhere close to home?

"Strong guidance" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

iclaudius_2

Woah - looks like I kinda walked the wrong party a bit late. It's apparent that people are on 'sides' in this forum so I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to change minds. But you all appear to have lots of information so I'd like to at least try to learn something here.

As a father of 2 toddlers, thinking about their uni costs, reasons I won't be planning for my kids to go into student debt:

1. Aren't above-inflation interest rates just a wee bit scary?
Martin tries to sweeten the notion of RPI+3% with the tantalising chance of deflation? When has that happened to RPI? Look at historic RPI records as posted by swanlowpark's website...
This is a bit worrying - RPI has been as high as 25% in the 70s and more recently in the 90s was at 9.3%. Even if it was around 5%, when you tack 8% onto this level it starts to look like the interest rate for a private loan. Even on the student loan website it is hard to ignore the fact their rates were at 4.8% only 4 years ago. No way anyone would benefit with 27k sitting around at 4.8%. Martin's little calculations elsewhere fail to account for this.

2. The system encourages debt-takers to sit back and make the minimum payments. Even ML acknowledges that if you sit on it for the max period of 30 years at these new interest rates those blissful 3 years of study will cost more. Key government argument is 'don't worry how much you borrow - you will probably never have to repay it all. ML sheepishly acknowledges he needs 'more research' about whether people will have less disposable income over the life of their debt. Disposable income? What about pensions? Building wealth?

3. Total hokum about the new system enabling young people to save for a deposit. How many people recall earning less than 21k and being able to save the deposit?

4. Tuition inflation is also a bit scary.
1998 1k tuition introduced
2004 3k cap introduced
2010 9k cap introduced
At this rate fees have TREBLED every 6 years. My first kid get to uni in 14 years. At this rate they would be capped above 75k per annum. Sounds crazy but at best it illustrates a concern that these total amounts will continue to rocket faster than other indices as the government creeps towards the US model.

Oldernotwiser

iclaudius wrote: »

4. Tuition inflation is also a bit scary.
1998 1k tuition introduced
2004 3k cap introduced
2010 9k cap introduced
At this rate fees have TREBLED every 6 years. My first kid get to uni in 14 years. At this rate they would be capped above 75k per annum. Sounds crazy but at best it illustrates a concern that these total amounts will continue to rocket faster than other indices as the government creeps towards the US model.

I don't think it's fair to talk about inflation in this context as fees have risen, not because of inflation but because students are now directly paying for the cost of their fees, which wasn't the case in the past.