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Sacked for Gross Misconduct - reference
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Hi, I work in HR.
Even when someone has been dismissed we are generally advised not to admit it on paper (HR Manager with major blue chip). We simply gave dates of employment and do not comment any further for 'legal' reasons unless there was an agreed reference in place under the terms of a compromise agreement for example. The people who generally mess you up are MDs or managers who dont know better and phone references.
Your former colleague can do you a character reference - not on letterheaded paper. Most companies will accept his, especially if you explain that the company operates a 'confirmation only' reference policy.'If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need' Marcus Tullius Cicero0 -
Hi, I work in HR.
Even when someone has been dismissed we are generally advised not to admit it on paper (HR Manager with major blue chip). We simply gave dates of employment and do not comment any further for 'legal' reasons unless there was an agreed reference in place under the terms of a compromise agreement for example. The people who generally mess you up are MDs or managers who dont know better and phone references.
Your former colleague can do you a character reference - not on letterheaded paper. Most companies will accept his, especially if you explain that the company operates a 'confirmation only' reference policy.
There is no legal reason whatsoever why an employer cannot state that an employee was dismissed for gross misconduct - unless the employer happens to be lying.
You are advising the OP to complound their situation by lying to potential employers - his company clearly do not give "confirmation only references" because they have said that they will have to mention this in references. Not to may be your comapny policy - this is theirs. And they are operating just as "legally" as you are.
I am amazed that "most companies" accept a personal reference from "anybody" rather than a last employers reference. I don't know any that do.
OP, in the end you have to do what you decide, and then live with the consequences of doing so. The consequence of lying about why you lost your job, lying about your former employers reference and getting a "mate" to write one that does not tell the truth is that you can spend the next few years looking over your shoulder - this is obtaining a job by deception and you can very easily be sacked for it whenever the employer finds out, even if it is years in the future.
I think this might be the point where dandelionclaock30 quotes his miraculous statistics on the number of people convicted of obtaining a job by deception (it was you wasn't it that quoted them several weeks back?) - it may not be likely (dismissal is much more likely) but it is a criminal offence!0 -
Your contrition is admirable but it appears not to have done you any favours whatsoever. If it had been me I would have denied it. In this climate its going to be very difficult in front of a prospective employer to put any positive spin on it. For a start you've got the application form. Tick the dismissal in last 5 years box and how far do you expect to get.
Unless you can control the content of the reference that's a no go. But as hex2 has said it would be unlikely, but not impossible, that the previous employer would bare all in it. An alternative is take a chance on whether they take up the reference. Many don''t. I would suspect that the previous employer when asked for a reference would supply a non-committal one. Why get into difficult territory. They don't owe another firm any favours.
If it were me-I'd lie, but I'm not suggesting that to you.As surely as night follows day capitalism will come crumbling down. On a mission to secure a just and ethical society.0 -
What would you do then SarEl if you were dismissed from your job?, members of the legal profession do get regularily dismissed dont they? Would you go around with a loud speaker outside your courts being open and honest about it?.Hoping that some decent kindly employer would take you on?
Maybe if faced with some hard choices in the real world, not in the world of £100K a year jobs your approach would be a little different perhaps?0 -
He didn't say that at all. He said that if they were asked they would say so. Lots of references don't ask if the person was dismissed so it might then not be mentioned.You are advising the OP to complound their situation by lying to potential employers - his company clearly do not give "confirmation only references" because they have said that they will have to mention this in references.
I gave a colleague as a referee for my last job as my line manager had left. It was accepted.I am amazed that "most companies" accept a personal reference from "anybody" rather than a last employers reference. I don't know any that do.
A colleague wouldn't necessarily have to lie. They simply say that the guy was good to work with and so on. No lies there.OP, in the end you have to do what you decide, and then live with the consequences of doing so. The consequence of lying about why you lost your job, lying about your former employers reference and getting a "mate" to write one that does not tell the truth is that you can spend the next few years looking over your shoulder - this is obtaining a job by deception and you can very easily be sacked for it whenever the employer finds out, even if it is years in the future.0 -
Dream on. Employers ask for the reference of the last employer. Not some mate who is covering for you.
Most employers will not even take up a reference for every single person they take on. I know of a person who was dismissed from a well known high street retailer submitted a claim to an ET in the end they dropped the claim due to stress. However, 18 months later they reapplied to work in the same role and were reemployed at a different store. The company's HR dept. didn't even check to see if this person worked for them previously.
I also disagree that an employer finding out that an employee lied in the selection process would automatically lead to dismissal. I would argue that if the person proved they were competent in the job then dismissal would be unlikely. I have come across people that have committed acts that have warranted dismissal; however, they were let off with a warning because they were so good at their job. Many employees through their own performance make themselves almost unsackable.
The importance of a reference really does depend on the sector the perspective employee is looking to working in, the level of seniority there applying at, the employers recruitment process, as larger employers are generally geared more towards assessment centers and maybe 2 stage interview process. Whereas, with a smaller employer they will likely base their decision on an interview and a detailed reference from a previous employer.
If the OP is going for an entry-level position in say a high street retailer then a reference is not really going to a big issue, as they will only likely need a personal one if they need one at all.0 -
Most employers will not even take up a reference for every single person they take on. I know of a person who was dismissed from a well known high street retailer submitted a claim to an ET in the end they dropped the claim due to stress. However, 18 months later they reapplied to work in the same role and were reemployed at a different store. The company's HR dept. didn't even check to see if this person worked for them previously.
No offence, but knowing one (or a few) people who this happened to doesn't mean most employers don't take up references. I've never known an employer I've worked either for or with not to take up references for every single person.as larger employers are generally geared more towards assessment centers and maybe 2 stage interview process. Whereas, with a smaller employer they will likely base their decision on an interview and a detailed reference from a previous employer.
Are you in retail by any chance? Large retail employers may do assessment centres for high volume recruitment, but most large employers do not do assessment centres for roles - not at all. They are very costly, very resource heavy and very time consuming! So unless you're recruiting volume they are not a practical option. Outside of volume they are generally reserved for graduate schemes or apprenticeship programmes.
KiKi' <-- See that? It's called an apostrophe. It does not mean "hey, look out, here comes an S".0 -
So what was actually stolen and returned? Are we talking something small like a book or was it a car?0
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