Translink/Metro Strike 30th November

A.L.D.A

saverbuyer wrote: »

Be that as it may the fact remains - The PRIVATE SECTOR pays your wages.

The only way we can afford the existing burden of spending is if GDP increases and the Public sector as a percentage declines. If we do not get growth we are in serious trouble.

So what Services do you think could be cut? The scale of the adjustment required is colossal. Where do you make the 700,000 staff reduction? As I have said before I would not blame the people employed, but those who should be in charge.

x12yhp

A.L.D.A wrote: »

As I have said before I would not blame the people employed, but those who should be in charge.

I do not blame either entirely. I think it is a widely acknowledged 'detail' that there is a lot of complacency amongst certain public sector workers. The demands are not exceptionally high, the benefits are pretty good compared to private and it is pretty difficult to actually get kicked out. At the same time, the middle management have just the same. They get the job mostly done in almost the right time and no once ever says anything against them. So we have mismanagement of a less than ideally efficient workforce and that gives many of our problems.

The scale of correction is massive, like you say, and it irritates the life out of me that the majority of our population refuse to accept it and continue to fight. The most horrid irony is that if people protest enough about little compromises then we go bust and they lose everything.

Snoozle

saverbuyer wrote: »

Be that as it may the fact remains - The PRIVATE SECTOR pays your wages.

If you are talking about through taxation, then surely that is not strictly true, since public sector workers pay income tax too? And pay tax through VAT etc when they use their salaries to purchase goods and services? And the public sector itself buys goods and services from the private sector, so by that logic you could easily say to vast swathes of private sector employees that the public sector pays their wages. Is it not a sort of circular argument?

I hate all this private sector vs public sector fighting, its depressing to see people set against each other like this. There are perks to working in the public sector, such as flexi time etc. Actually, that is the main one that I can think of, and even that isn't available to everyone. But in the private sector a lot of people have perks that you don't get in the public sector such as share save schemes, bonuses. And then there are, for some people, things like gifts from suppliers/business contacts, corporate hospitality etc. None of these apply to the public sector.

I don't work in the public sector myself, but I can't see the logic in bashing those who do - most of them work there because they need a job not because they want to bleed the country dry.

starnight_2

saverbuyer wrote: »

Be that as it may the fact remains - The PRIVATE SECTOR pays your wages.

I don't understand where people are getting this from! Do people actually believe public workers don't pay tax and VAT?

A.L.D.A

x12yhp wrote: »

The scale of correction is massive, like you say, and it irritates the life out of me that the majority of our population refuse to accept it and continue to fight. The most horrid irony is that if people protest enough about little compromises then we go bust and they lose everything.

It is dire and here is why. Because of our economic model we need exponential growth to pay off loans, and reduce borrowing . Cannot be done.

So we will have a period of printing and with luck inflate much of the debt out of existence. That should buy us another 5 -10 years if we are exceptionally lucky. And if a miracle happens we will have a government that invests heavily in renewable energy production, reduced energy consumption and electrification generally. I would drop all new road programmes and anything that relies on cars is a bad investment.

We have not only hit peak oil, but other commodities are in short supply and world population continues to increase. We cannot use nuclear because there are supply problems there. We cannot rely on hope and a new invention. If wonder fuel does happen the feed in period will be decades. If it does not we are sunk. With all new innovations it takes time to replace the old.

The problems we are going to face in the next 20 years are so fundamental that pensions are the least of our problems. In economic collapse there will not be any at all. If there is hyper inflation many will be worthless. If I were looking 20 years on I would be thinking house with big garden or a few acres of land close to public transport.

China is using its cheque book to try and secure resources, the West its gun boats. The period ahead is not going to be like the last 60 years. Hopefully we rise to the occasion and it is a period of innovation and radical change.

Now I have that off my chest, people have every right to strike and protest and I am glad there was a good turnout as I have a feeling we may have need for many more over all sorts of issues.

highrisklowreturn

Economics 101: Public Sector workers pay tax from a wage wholly derived of tax by private sector workers.

A.L.D.A

Snoozle wrote: »

I hate all this private sector vs public sector fighting, its depressing to see people set against each other like this.

I don't work in the public sector myself, but I can't see the logic in bashing those who do - most of them work there because they need a job not because they want to bleed the country dry.

I agree, pointless division of those who should have common cause.

starnight wrote: »

I don't understand where people are getting this from! Do people actually believe public workers don't pay tax and VAT?

Imagine the absurd and assume that everyone was employed in the Civil Service and all goods, food and services were imported how long would that economic model last? It would collapse unless it was a Communist state and production of goods food and services were in state hands. Ultimately the production end feeds and cloths us all.

Equally imagine a state with no civil service, no Police, no Health Service and no State Schools. Not a pretty thought.

There needs to be an agreed balance.

starnight_2

A.L.D.A wrote: »

Imagine the absurd and assume that everyone was employed in the Civil Service and all goods, food and services were imported how long would that economic model last? It would collapse unless it was a Communist state and production of goods food and services were in state hands. Ultimately the production end feeds and cloths us all.

Equally imagine a state with no civil service, no Police, no Health Service and no State Schools. Not a pretty thought.

There needs to be an agreed balance.

I'm actually in agreement with you, I'm not one of those who won't agree to ANY changes. There needs to be changes, but the government is angering their employees, and alienating them. Their (and the unions) rhetoric is pitting the working class against each other. Why not increase tax for all? Because there would be a riot people don't want to see their tax increased. Yet the public workers are being asked to fork out up to another 3% of their monthly wage to help pay for the countries debts.

A.L.D.A

starnight wrote: »

I'm actually in agreement with you, I'm not one of those who won't agree to ANY changes. There needs to be changes, but the government is angering their employees, and alienating them. Their (and the unions) rhetoric is pitting the working class against each other. Why not increase tax for all? Because there would be a riot people don't want to see their tax increased. Yet the public workers are being asked to fork out up to another 3% of their monthly wage to help pay for the countries debts.

I put a large portion of the blame on successive governments who spent when they should not have. I think a lot of the services provided by the public sector could be simplified and better organised and managed. I know, easy to say.

In my own field we have legislation that contradicts other legislation, rules that refer to other rules that change and alter and refer to yet more. It is an utter mess and the proliferation of departments has made life unnecessarily confusing. It is not just the cost of Government Departments, but the cost of the often ill considered legislation and compliance. Perhaps part of the backlash is pent up anger misdirected at the strikers when the real target should be those in charge now and previously.

As for new tax, if any are introduced they should be aimed at reducing unnecessary imports. High end cars, some electrical goods, etc. We would need to be inventive so as not to be seen as imposing import duties.

However can existing public sector expenditure be sustained? I doubt it. If memory is correct it is 45.45% of GDP!!!!!!!!!

saverbuyer

It really baffles me sometime how people either just don't get it or refuse to even attempt to.

Yes there is private sector business that has the public sector as its biggest customer.

Yes public workers “pay” tax, VAT etc. I'm not disputing this.

Where do you think this money ultimately comes from? Where does the government get the money to pay the public sector wages so the workers give the government a little of this back in the form of tax/VAT?

All this come from either borrowing or THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

I know this may be hard to accept but all your public sector wages are paid from someone in the public sector working to sell something to someone.

By all means fight for what you believe is a fair pension just don't expect the private sector to carry on paying for it. It isn’t happening.