Prams on buses

DCodd

I'm quite happy to be corrected but as far as I know, the only legal requirement is that a Public Transport operator must provide priority seating and access to disabled people (and also AFAIK, that includes the temporarily disabled). So as the old woman had difficulty in walking i.e. the walking stick, then priority should have been given to her until such point as a person with a wheelchair had boarded. The operators Company policy would take second place to the regulations.

You are meant to give up your seat to a pregnant Woman but I'm not sure if that has been written into law yet.

As I said, if someone knows better, please correct me.

Nicki

Sorry but I STILL don't understand the problem

The choice is not between elderly lady standing, and mum being able to travel. I can understand in that situation that mum should get off the bus and wait for the next one to come. But the situation here was a bus with other empty seats where elderly lady could sit, but if she refused to move, mum having paid her fare had to get off, wait for another bus and pay another fare, repeat until she finds a bus with someone not too ignorant to let her put the pushchair in the designated spot.

Mum should have been polite, and elderly lady should have moved graciously.

By the way different buses obviously have different layouts because in my part of London, the buggy space is in the middle of the bus, and there are 4 disabled seats at the front with extra leg room, and at least 2 sometimes 4 more just past the buggy space. There is only one which is usually a flip down seat and therefore not very comfortable for an older person in the buggy space. So if I got on a bus with my pushchair and an old lady was sitting in that seat, it would not be the easiest or most accessible place for her to put her poor aching body, and I wouldn't see any reason not to politely ask her to move to another more suitable seat.

Tiddlywinks

DCodd wrote: »

You are meant to give up your seat to a pregnant Woman but I'm not sure if that has been written into law yet.

Good grief - this would be Legislation for the ignorant - when did well mannered people become an endangered species?

However, I do get a little fed up with the "entitlement culture" of the parent and child brigade. In our local supermarket, the parent and child spaces are closer than the blue badge spaces - why?

Plus, I've lost count of the number of times my mum (wheelchair user) has had to wait for ages outside a disabled loo only to find a mum and various kids come out eventually. Please don't suggest they may have had "ADHD" or something similar - they were able bodied and didn't need to use the disabled facility - it's just selfish and less effort to use the bigger space of the disable loo.

In the OP's scenario, the old lady was disabled and should have had priority.

Nicki

If a wheelchair user had boarded the bus instead of a mum with a pram should the old lady still have sat there. Or should she have moved to let the wheelchair have access? And if so, why is this different.

As for the disabled loos, I have a 10 year old girl with severe learning difficulties who can't use the toilet by herself and we do use the disabled facilities whenever we can because there is more room and it gives her more dignity than us both squeezed in together into a single cubicle. It may be a hidden disability but she is registered disabled assessed with the higher rate component for care for DLA and just as entitled to use those facilities as someone in a wheelchair. I don't use the disabled loos for my non disabled children, but I certainly don't regard them as only for those in wheelchairs. They are for any disabled person with continence needs, be that a stoma or catheter, needing help to use the facilities, or mobility issues. Not all disabilities are visible so you might want to be careful about who you challenge on this.

DCodd

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

Good grief - this would be Legislation for the ignorant - when did well mannered people become an endangered species?


In the OP's scenario, the old lady was disabled and should have had priority.

I know its the Daily Mail but.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284832/Commuters-leave-pregnant-women-standing--fear-theyll-confuse-bump-belly.html

DCodd

Nicki wrote: »

If a wheelchair user had boarded the bus instead of a mum with a pram should the old lady still have sat there. Or should she have moved to let the wheelchair have access? And if so, why is this different.

.

The old lady should move because it is written into legislation.

It is different because it is only a courtesy for the old woman with the walking stick to give up the seat for the Mother with the pram and, if I am right the old lady had a greater need (under the legislation).

Whether it is morally right is a matter for the individual.

Nicki

I am 100% sure you have misunderstood the legislation. There is no law which says that all old people with sticks must be allowed to sit in any seat they choose on a bus.

There IS legislation which covers the duty on public places to be accessible to the disabled. That duty is fulfilled by having a seat which the lady can get to IF she even has a disability which is covered by the act. Any of the seats on the bottom deck of the bus are accessible to her, even if some are easier to reach than others. The one seat in the buggy slot is not the only one on the whole bus.

Similarly, the legislation does not favour one disability over another. There is nothing in it which says for example that the person in the wheelchair because they have osteoarthritis and can only walk 50 yards, has to vacate the wheelchair spot and wait for the next bus when the T3 quadriplegic in his motorized wheelchair boards.

This isn't an either/or situation. Both the mum and the elderly lady can ride on the bus simultaneously in comfort if common sense and common courtesy prevail. There seem to be a lot of people on here who have an inbuilt prejudice against women with children, and feel for some reason at they shouldn't be allowed on a bus full stop, and if they do dare to travel with a child in a pushchair it is to boast that they have "pushed a child out of their fanny". Frankly it takes a particularly twisted and perverted mind to think that. I travel with my child on a bus sometimes because it is the quickest, easiest and cheapest way to get from A to B, and I leave him in his pushchair because that is the safest and easiest way for him to travel. That other passengers might be considering which part of my body he emerged from had never crossed my mind until reading this thread. Though in my case they would be wrong as he was born by c section

DCodd

I don't think I have misunderstood the legislation. The legislation does say that "priority seating" should be available to disabled people, that suggests specific seats and not just any seat. The Wheelchair seat would be prioritised for a disabled wheelchair user first and foremost but if it is vacant and it is a "prioritised seat" then a disabled (temporarily or not) person would be entitled to use it more so than a woman with a pram.

The prioritising of seats requires a "rating" system by its very nature and most places and providers use one. Anyone can sit in any seat but must then give it up if someone disabled requires it, in a similar way that if it is a wheelchair seat/space an ambulent disabled person would have to give it up for the wheelchair user.

Nicki

You are assuming though that the flip up seat in the disabled space is a designated priority seat. I am not sure that it is. The floor space is designated disabled for use by wheelchairs (and if not needed by them explicitly for pushchairs). The seat there is just a seat which anyone can use if the floor space isn't required. There are separate designated priority seats elsewhere on the bus. At least on London buses. Other buses may be different.

The flip up seat is very unsuitable for a disabled person because it is unstable so it would be weird to have it as one of the designated priority seats.

DCodd

Nicki wrote: »

You are assuming though that the flip up seat in the disabled space is a designated priority seat. I am not sure that it is. The floor space is designated disabled for use by wheelchairs (and if not needed by them explicitly for pushchairs). The seat there is just a seat which anyone can use if the floor space isn't required. There are separate designated priority seats elsewhere on the bus. At least on London buses. Other buses may be different.

The flip up seat is very unsuitable for a disabled person because it is unstable so it would be weird to have it as one of the designated priority seats.

Fair point and TFL have taken great strides with transportation for the disabled and pregnant so London's public transport is different in many respects to other areas of the Country.

I was not aware that the OP was talking about London Buses.