Elderly parents selling house - need advice with future plans please.....

phoebe1989seb

Hi all,

Firstly I'm not sure if this is the right place for this thread, so apologies in advance if it is not!

My elderly parents are about to put their home of 40+ years on the market as my Father, who has been caring for my Mum who has Alzheimer's for the past few years has had enough and can no longer cope - both with her and the maintenance on their relatively large house.

My parents have always been very proud and have refused any offers of help from us and as we have been living some distance away (although we recently moved closer and are now only 1.5 hours away), it has been difficult to do much to make my Father's life easier - although we have had Mum to stay for short breaks to give him a rest as well as doing what odd jobs we can when we visit.

Anyway, he has got it into his head that when the house is sold, he will buy a flat for himself in a retirement complex and that my Mum will go into a care home. We are not at all happy about this for whilst we appreciate that with her condition, to a certain extent it could be perceived that she will 'get over it', we feel that as she is already devastated at the thought of leaving her home of so many years, the prospect of having to be parted from my Father will finish her off :eek:

As an alternative we have suggested that my Father could perhaps buy a flat as planned, but that to lighten his load my Mum would live half the time there with him and the remainder with us - that way he would get plenty of respite as well as not having to maintain a large property and my Mum would be with familiar loved ones with no need for a total separation.

My Father is considering the merits/demerits of this proposal and has said that he would be preparred to contribute to the cost of adapting our house to suit Mum's needs............this is due to the fact that when we bought our house in May it was an unfinished project which we had a five-year plan to complete and budget-wise we are not in a position to complete all the necessary work immediately - bare stone walls throughout which all need re-plastering, dangerous staircase, no proper kitchen and two antiquated bathrooms as well as only half the re-wiring being complete - it is barely habitable for two healthy 40-somethings, let alone my Mum of 81!

My parents have a reasonable amount of assets/capital, both jointly and individually held, and we were wondering where the proposed plan (specifically of an injection of cash from either one or both of them to adapt our house) would leave us regarding deprivation of assets if in the future Mum (or indeed Father) were to require going into care?

Many thanks for any advice you can give,

Phoebe x

david29dpo

There is no way the council would see yours plans as deprivation of assets. Not sure how far back the council go back as far as saving and assets go but if a lot of money is spent on your house to help your mom, i would have no worries at all.

Emmzi

not what you asked, but if dad has "had enough" I am thinking he may be agreeing and really thinking mum will live with you almost all the time.

Are you really ready for that to happen and have you spoken to a social/ care worker about alternatives? There may be a hybrid flat/ home in your area, dad may just need regular help through the day, etc.

It must be incredebly painful watching the one you love fade away. My thoughts are with you and I hope you make the right choices for all of you.

ognum

I commend your desire to help your Mum and Dad but I think you need to think your plan through very carefully

You need to listen to your Dad saying he has 'had enough' the difficulties of 24 hour care for someone who is confused are enormous The physical and emotional toll should be recognised so even if your elderly father cares for your mother part time it will still be very hard work!

You need to consider this too she may not be able to be left even for you to go to the shops can you cope with this?

Maybe you should send your father on a holiday for two or three weeks and stay with your Mum before you embark on this

Ask yourself whether part of this plan is a desire to have some money to finish your dream home!

It depends on the amount of time your mother spends with you and for how long whether this would be considered a deprevation of assets If she only stayed for 2 -3 month for 2 years before needing perminent care then there probably would be a case

poppy10_2

phoebe1989seb wrote: »

We are not at all happy about this for whilst we appreciate that with her condition, to a certain extent it could be perceived that she will 'get over it', we feel that as she is already devastated at the thought of leaving her home of so many years, the prospect of having to be parted from my Father will finish her off :eek:

Your mother's condition is only going to get worse. Your father has done admirably in looking after her all these years, if he says he can't cope any more then you should take that seriously. The disruption of a move into a new flat, and then moving to your house half the time, will be far more detrimental to her than a simple straight move into 24 hour care. The last thing you should be doing with someone who has Alzheimer's is shuttling them back and forth between two residences. With the severity of her memory problems she will never be able to settle or establish a regular routine.

Are you sure you haveyour mother's best interests at heart? It's hard to see how she would benefit from having her money spent on replastering your house and buying you a new kitchen. Forget deprivation of assets, it could be seen as you financially exploiting your elderly parents - could well be a safeguarding issue here.

Your dad's original plan sounded the best option. Let him be, and find the money to do your house up from other sources.

poppysarah

phoebe1989seb wrote: »

Father, who has been caring for my Mum who has Alzheimer's for the past few years has had enough and can no longer cope - both with her and the maintenance on their relatively large house.


we feel that as she is already devastated at the thought of leaving her home of so many years, the prospect of having to be parted from my Father will finish her off :eek:

What stage is she at?
She must not be very far advanced if she still knows home as home still.

Book a week off work and go and look after her. Send your dad on a break and then come back and tell us how you feel about looking after her full time.

Your mum probably needs full time professional care.
Your dad probably needs a rest and some TLC too.

It's horrific to think about relatives needing to go into a home, but when their main carer says they can't manage it's usually the only option.

phoebe1989seb

Thank you all for your helpful replies - there is definitely a lot to consider before any decision is reached

We have thought very long and hard about the implications of having mum here, even if it was only every other week, for example. I have been to stay in their house previously when my father went away for a short break to visit relatives so appreciate that caring for her full-time would not be a walk in the park, although of course a few days cannot compare to what it would be like to care for her on a full-time basis.

However, we do have ideas to put plans in place to create a 'memories room' for her here, were she to come - filled with all her photo albums, mementoes of her life and also of her beloved only grandson........our son. Also where we live there is plenty of open space for walks (she is still very mobile at the moment) and all the shopping I would need to do can be done within a few minutes walk so she could, for the time being at least, accompany me. I don't work, have no kids to worry about and DH is very supportive so I think we could cope. We also have cats and she has long desired a cat, but my father wouldn't agree thinking it would be too much to cope with but I believe it would be something for her to focus on and may stimulate her.

I do appreciate that this solution is still not the perfect one - but then I'm not sure that this exists! We had originally discussed with my father the option of 'assisted living', preferably closer to us, but he wants to remain in the area they know having lived there all their married life - which is understandable - and unfortunately having trawled our local area there is nothing like that near us anyway, apart from one complex which is out in the countryside with no facilities within walking distance so it really wouldn't suit as he has recently given up driving.

Regarding the suggestion that we are looking at this as a way to get our renovations completed more quickly - this has been one of the main things holding me back until now...........DH thinks I'm being daft and that as their daughter it is money I'm entitled to anyway and that I'd just be getting it a bit earlier than planned, but I do feel that as a result it may be influencing my feelings on what is 'best' for them both, but then as they both seem to want very different things, finding the 'best' solution may be an impossible ask. We bought the house with the intention of doing the work gradually over a period of five years, doing the majority ourselves (we have completed several much larger projects previously and usually much quicker as we had a child at home then so it was imperative the work didn't drag on), just getting in tradesmen to do the electrics etc, so time was as much an issue as costs in our renovation plans. We are also mortgage-free and wanted to avoid borrowing money from a bank to fund the work if possible so were prepared to do it piecemeal as funds/time allowed.

Regarding the 'deprivation of assets' issue (again, lol!), would it make any difference at all if we did go down the proposed route, if the money were to come from funds held individually (for example by my father) rather than jointly-held capital? Any flat purchased would be done so with the proceeds from their house sale, which is jointly owned.

Whilst typing this (too long, sorry!) post others have added comments. In response to those - I have already looked after my mum on several occasions both in our previous house (which unfortunately had the renovations all completed and funded by us and even had a ready-made annex which would have been ideal for one/both of my parents - when we suggested they move in with us even as recently as this Spring before we sold, they wouldn't even contemplate the idea as they were in denial that they required help) and know what I would be dealing with. I agree that shuttling her back and forth is not the best of ideas, but she is adamant that she won't be parted from my father, whilst he is equally adamant that she cannot be with him full time. It is the most difficult decision I have ever been involved in and whilst I appreciate that it is not wholly mine to make, my father changes his mind about what he wants every time we speak, so I feel I have to give some input or he may regret whatever he decides.

The social services have said, btw that they just require the services of a cleaner to go in once a week - which really is far from sufficient help................and yes, she still knows her home, her family (including DS grandson's G/F) and goes to the local shops alone.

We could have her here as the house is now - but that really isn't an option as it is very unsafe and has no creature comforts......we don't have a kitchen as such. Personally I don't care how long the work takes to get done - as I said it was always a five-year plan, but it is annoying to know we could have taken care of her easily in our last home but they refused to even consider this as an option. We also considered moving even closer to them, but my father was very rude at the time (early 2011) saying he preferred us further away!

Thanks again for all your comments, but I guess this is a decision only the family can make...........

Phoebe x

Ferferksake

Phoebe, as others have said, your wish to care for mum amongst loved ones is admirable, but your dad has been doing this 24/7 and he knows just how hard it can be. I'm sorry to say, but you may find that by the time you've done all the adaptations to your house etc. your mum may not even recognise you anyway. My dad has dementia and he often doesn't recognise mum. He has no idea who the grandchildren are most of the time and although he usually remembers my husband, he usually forgets me. (Thanks dad! )

This cruel disease can progress very rapidly so if you're making plans for your mum's care six months ahead then you'll need to factor in some estimate of rate of deterioration. It's difficult, but there will be a time when it's best for your mum to go into care. They have lots of staff who are specialised in caring for people with her condition and however much we want to give back to our parents the love and care that they gave to us as when we were young, the fact is we can't do it as well as the professionals can. It's one thing to change a baby's nappy, it's another thing to change an adult's incontinence pants while they're shouting at you, biting and scratching.

Most of all, listen to what your dad wants carefully. My mum has told me "I've loved your dad for so many years and we've had some fantastic times, I don't want to finish our lives together by hating and resenting him because I can't cope and have no life of my own. When the time comes that he's too much for me, he'll have to go in a home". Don't force your dad to endure more than he can, especially for the sake of his health. My mum gets very weary at times so dad goes into respite care and we take her off for a week in the sun. It's incredibly draining. For anyone who's never done it, a week of 24/7 care, single-handed is a real eye-opener.

Having looked at granny-flat and annex options ourselves, I'm afraid to say that the Council do consider this asset deprivation (well our Council does at any rate). Say you tacked on a granny-flat that added £50k to the value of £200k house, if your parents funded this, unless this was done as an official loan which you repaid to them or unless it was done under a formal "lease for life" agreement (but that raises other problems), the Council would view it that your parents owned 50/250 of your house.

I think you'll find much more specialised advise from the Az forum, people there have walked the tightrope already, know all the ins and outs of funding and can give some good support and advice in terms of your mum's needs. I'll try and post the link here, but in case it doesn't work Google "Talking Point Alzheimers".

http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/forum.php

Good luck.

Jane

bris

david29dpo wrote: »

There is no way the council would see yours plans as deprivation of assets. Not sure how far back the council go back as far as saving and assets go but if a lot of money is spent on your house to help your mom, i would have no worries at all.

I tend to disagree with this. Plastering walls and fitting new kitchens etc is a renovation that suit the children and will have little benefit to the mother.
The care your mother needs is very specialist and unless you are prepared to sit and watch her evey minute of the day you simply can't cope with it.
Your father is right, it's now time for him to do the best by your mother and himself. Specialist care is needed.

phoebe1989seb

Thank you Jane, your kind words of support are much appreciated I am sorry to hear you have been through similar issues with your own parents and your suggestions/recommendations are very welcome. I have had a look at the forum to which you refer and it sems to be a good source of info/support. It is interesting also to hear your experience of the local authority's interpretation of the deprivation of assets scenario. There is so much to think about and consider, as I really don't want either of them to feel I have let them down (even with mum's condition she is still pretty rational sometimes and is aware of what we are currently contemplating). Indeed for a lot of the time you would not realise she was ill - she tends to be very quiet and has always been that way so the Alzheimer's is not particularly apparent to strangers.

I forgot to say that on Monday next week she is having an assessment by the doc in charge of the elderly care dept at their local hospital so it will be interesting to see what conclusion she forms.

Not sure if it's of any bearing, but one last point concerning my parents' finances is that they have combined assets of £250-£300k and individually held assets of approximately £50-60k each, so money to pay for care (if/when required) would not be a problem.

Phoebe x

Whiteknight

phoebe1989seb wrote: »

Hi all,

Firstly I'm not sure if this is the right place for this thread, so apologies in advance if it is not!

My elderly parents are about to put their home of 40+ years on the market as my Father, who has been caring for my Mum who has Alzheimer's for the past few years has had enough and can no longer cope - both with her and the maintenance on their relatively large house.

My parents have always been very proud and have refused any offers of help from us and as we have been living some distance away (although we recently moved closer and are now only 1.5 hours away), it has been difficult to do much to make my Father's life easier - although we have had Mum to stay for short breaks to give him a rest as well as doing what odd jobs we can when we visit.

Anyway, he has got it into his head that when the house is sold, he will buy a flat for himself in a retirement complex and that my Mum will go into a care home. We are not at all happy about this for whilst we appreciate that with her condition, to a certain extent it could be perceived that she will 'get over it', we feel that as she is already devastated at the thought of leaving her home of so many years, the prospect of having to be parted from my Father will finish her off :eek:

As an alternative we have suggested that my Father could perhaps buy a flat as planned, but that to lighten his load my Mum would live half the time there with him and the remainder with us - that way he would get plenty of respite as well as not having to maintain a large property and my Mum would be with familiar loved ones with no need for a total separation.

My Father is considering the merits/demerits of this proposal and has said that he would be preparred to contribute to the cost of adapting our house to suit Mum's needs............this is due to the fact that when we bought our house in May it was an unfinished project which we had a five-year plan to complete and budget-wise we are not in a position to complete all the necessary work immediately - bare stone walls throughout which all need re-plastering, dangerous staircase, no proper kitchen and two antiquated bathrooms as well as only half the re-wiring being complete - it is barely habitable for two healthy 40-somethings, let alone my Mum of 81!

My parents have a reasonable amount of assets/capital, both jointly and individually held, and we were wondering where the proposed plan (specifically of an injection of cash from either one or both of them to adapt our house) would leave us regarding deprivation of assets if in the future Mum (or indeed Father) were to require going into care?

Many thanks for any advice you can give,

Phoebe x

Your father has already told you that he does not want to move closer to you, so are you prepared to pick up your mother every other week, for her to endure a 1.5 hour journey? He has also told you that he can no longer cope with the demands of looking after her - not a decision I expect he has taken lightly.

As others have said it maybe upsetting for her to see her home sold and to be moved in to a care home but she would soon settle - I would imagine a lot quicker than being pushed back and forth between two households, and sorry to say this but what happens if you become tired of caring for her or your circumstances change so that you can't have her as often - your father gets to become a carer again something he has told you he can no longer cope with.

I can understand why you don't want to see her go into a care home but I really think this is a decision for your father to make with your support. Would it not be better for her in the long term to be in a care home near to where she lived so that she is still close by for your father to visit

On the deprivation aspect on things I suppose it all depends on the amounts of money being talked about and what they are being used for.

Big difference between adapting a house and rebuilding a house!