Work Experience while on Jobseekers Allowance (WORK PROGRAMME)

saintjammyswine

donnajunkie wrote: »

if someone has a degree in engineering the chances are they are competent at maths and literacy dont you think.yes you would, the level of literacy in graduates would obviously surprise you, as would the level of numeracy outside specific areas. go to the BKSB website and have a look at the tests if you like you may even surprise yourself. if someone has a work history that obviously required a good level of ability in maths and literacy then the chances are they dont need to do it, dont you think. it is humiliating because making people do it is saying i think you could be thick and you have to do this test for us to find out. when i had to do one i was tempted to say if you think i need to do this despite my work history then you obviously should be sitting this test as well.

for people with that sort of work history, it is very often those that have worked for a long time within for example engineering that do not have high standards of functional literacy & numeracy, not my opinion, once again established & researched fact. Have i asked you (i only offered the chance to above) to take the tests? I have explained why we have to do the assessments, nothing to do with thinking you are thick , that is not necessary, but because it can root out underlying issues such as dyslexia and lack of ability in english as a foreign language.

saintjammyswine

donnajunkie wrote: »

your project may well be very good. the problem is the majority are yet to experience anything like it.

Much as I would love to have everyone on my project,the employer in the pilot can only take 12-16 at a time and the classroom holds up to about 20! Sorry.

Caroline_a

donnajunkie wrote: »

if someone has a degree in engineering the chances are they are competent at maths and literacy dont you think. if someone has a work history that obviously required a good level of ability in maths and literacy then the chances are they dont need to do it, dont you think. it is humiliating because making people do it is saying i think you could be thick and you have to do this test for us to find out. when i had to do one i was tempted to say if you think i need to do this despite my work history then you obviously should be sitting this test as well.

I have done maths, english and verbal reasoning tests as part of the interviewing process for jobs. It enables employers to set standards. Would you suggest that if you went for an interview like this then you would say to the employer 'I'm not doing that, I've got GCSE/O Level/A Level maths'. Many people are unaware of their level of literacy believe it or not, and people who have a low level of literacy/numeracy, yet think that they can work in an office, etc, often are happy to accept the help if it enables them to achieve their goal.

saintjammyswine

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

My heads not up my a*** thank you very much,at least Im not an a****hole. I am a realist however and someone who can see things for what they are.

I look forward then to you proving me wrong.However, you will be unable to because you offer no solution.FACT.

While I might think it, I have never said you were. Once we are able to make the results of the pilot public, I will happily put them here. Until then you will have to take my word for it, sorry.

WPN

Right, when has poundland been mentioned?

I mentioned Poundland... they take a lot of placements on. They do not treat placements particularly bad as they treat all their staff badly.

Totally agree with SarEl and saintjammy here. Darklady you come across as very bitter about your employment and unemployment experience, but also seem unwilling to accept that some people really don't want to work.

Caroline, I think we all get it. Anyone following this topic realises that you and saintjammy either work or worked in that industry or are very pro-W2W. Likewise, you seem to be unwilling to accept that many people do want to work.

You do however have an usual stance. This is how most determine the difference between the genuine comments and the complete bs. I have never heard many say about jobseekers paying lipservice to jobseeking but do not want a job.

Those who I have spoken with in the recruitment industry or those who employ people in a different industry, and Jobcentre Plus say the complete opposite. The "workshy" are those who WANT a job but do NOT want to LOOK for a job. Those who think the job will come to them or think they can have a 3 month holiday before getting their backsides into gear.

Also, there has been many criticisms to spelling etc. in this forum topic, mine indeed in extremely bad because I type rather quickly and do no proof read it. I do not read it back, make changes or copy and paste it into a spell checker. What I dont understand is how these so-called self-styled clever peeps don't realise that you can't be a workshy unemployed person - its not possible. A person who doesn't want a job is economically inactive. This includes carers who do a great job (yes non-professional caring is a job in itself) Unemployed people are those who are out of work but SEEKING work. All JSA claimants are deemed to be unemployed.

These schemes people are placed on costs billions of pounds each year. Forget about disability benefits, tax credits, housing benefit etc. and disregard JSA Contribution Based as thats earnt. How much does JSA Income Based amount to each year? Some reason its so easy for JSA and "benefits" to go hand-in-hand... but the welfare bill isn't just JSA.

Vs fbzrbar zragvbaf serr cerfpevcgvbaf naq gung rirelbar pynvzvat WFN pynvzf cnffcbeg orarsvgf V nz tbvat gb ynhtu zl urnq bss.

Perhaps employed people would want taxes to go down with the waste from the W2W industry being destroyed to make savings (apart from if you work in that industry of course) but so many employed people are in favour of the unemployed being forced to go on these schemes in order to "earn" their benefit simply not realising it actually a worse off deal for them as they are paying for the schemes.

saintjammyswine

WPN wrote: »

I mentioned Poundland... they take a lot of placements on. They do not treat placements particularly bad as they treat all their staff badly.

OK, didnt realise, never dealt with them (luckily by the soudns of it!!!)

Caroline, I think we all get it. Anyone following this topic realises that you and saintjammy either work or worked in that industry or are very pro-W2W.work in not pro per se but pro the work peopl e on the whole do on it. Likewise, you seem to be unwilling to accept that many people do want to work. - about 9/10 I see are keen, ready and able to work

You do however have an usual stance. This is how most determine the difference between the genuine comments and the complete bs. I have never heard many say about jobseekers paying lipservice to jobseeking but do not want a job.

Those who I have spoken with in the recruitment industry or those who employ people in a different industry, and Jobcentre Plus say the complete opposite. The "workshy" are those who WANT a job but do NOT want to LOOK for a job. Those who think the job will come to them or think they can have a 3 month holiday before getting their backsides into gear.

Also, there has been many criticisms to spelling etc. in this forum topic, mine indeed in extremely bad because I type rather quickly and do no proof read it. I do not read it back, make changes or copy and paste it into a spell checker. What I dont understand is how these so-called self-styled clever peeps don't realise that you can't be a workshy unemployed person - its not possible. A person who doesn't want a job is economically inactive. This includes carers who do a great job (yes non-professional caring is a job in itself) Unemployed people are those who are out of work but SEEKING work. All JSA claimants are deemed to be unemployed.

These schemes people are placed on costs billions of pounds each year. Forget about disability benefits, tax credits, housing benefit etc. and disregard JSA Contribution Based as thats earnt. How much does JSA Income Based amount to each year? Some reason its so easy for JSA and "benefits" to go hand-in-hand... but the welfare bill isn't just JSA.

Vs fbzrbar zragvbaf serr cerfpevcgvbaf naq gung rirelbar pynvzvat WFN pynvzf cnffcbeg orarsvgf V nz tbvat gb ynhtu zl urnq bss.

Perhaps employed people would want taxes to go down with the waste from the W2W industry being destroyed to make savings (apart from if you work in that industry of course) but so many employed people are in favour of the unemployed being forced to go on these schemes in order to "earn" their benefit simply not realising it actually a worse off deal for them as they are paying for the schemes.

.......................

imatt

your project may well be very good. the problem is the majority are yet to experience anything like it

And this is the rub. I have heard from a number of people working in the W2W industry. They tend to defend their sector as some here are doing. They also always claim that the provider they work for delivers excellent results. However, as I have said noone should have to experience a service-by-chance where you may get good service amongst a barrel of inadequacy. People should either gat a consistently good service or have the ability to vote with their feet AND have the ability to voice genuine concerns. Otherwise I cannot see how the sector overall can improve.

Interestingly, I spoke to a certain Tony McNulty a couple of years ago. McNulty was Minister of State for Employment and Welfare Reform at the time. He resigned his position as he became embroiled in the MP's expenses scandal! In March 2009, he admitted claiming expenses on a second home, occupied by his parents, which was 8 miles away from his primary residence. The opportunity to speak with McNulty arrose on a BBC R5L phone in. I informed him about how dreadful facilities were at A4e (was not allowed to mention their name unfortunately) and how badly run the then ND was such as people spending 30 hours a week sitting at desks, reading newspapers and looking out of the window. His feeble response:

"I'm sorry the caller had a bad experience but I go up and down the country visiting these places and this is not what I experience".

So that's okay then. Conversely, the current Employment Minister Chris Grayling is on record as saying that the WP will be better than ND and FND as people will "not be spending 30 hours a week doing nothing". His words.



So where is Grayling getting his info from? If Grayling can see problems with ND and FND, why not McNulty? Of course, Grayling has a political agenda. He will happily rubbish a New Labour program and promote one from his own party, even to the point of ignoring inherent issues within the WP. But when the WP collapses or is replaced by another program, it will be left to another employment minister to attack it with gusto and promote its replacement.

I simply do not trust Labour or the Tories on employment issues to be honest. I would not trust the likes of McNulty or Grayling as far as I could throw the USS Nimitz with half a dozen 747's parked on its deck!

donnajunkie

saintjammyswine wrote: »

for people with that sort of work history, it is very often those that have worked for a long time within for example engineering that do not have high standards of functional literacy & numeracy, not my opinion, once again established & researched fact. Have i asked you (i only offered the chance to above) to take the tests? I have explained why we have to do the assessments, nothing to do with thinking you are thick , that is not necessary, but because it can root out underlying issues such as dyslexia and lack of ability in english as a foreign language.

these tests ask people to spell words like could. the maths is very basic as well with questions like whats 2 plus 5 plus 10.

saintjammyswine

I agree about the politics and it is a shame that we as a provider (FE College) are not able to put cast iron plans in place for the future beyond maybe 18 months as we dont know which way the political wind will blow and therefore what funding we will have. I am by nature sceptical of political agenda anyway, too much Yes Minister and Spitting Image while growing up in the 80s & 90s!!!!!! I will defend what I, my colleagues and our partners do but cant comment on what others do and see happening.

donnajunkie

Caroline_a wrote: »

I have done maths, english and verbal reasoning tests as part of the interviewing process for jobs. It enables employers to set standards. Would you suggest that if you went for an interview like this then you would say to the employer 'I'm not doing that, I've got GCSE/O Level/A Level maths'. Many people are unaware of their level of literacy believe it or not, and people who have a low level of literacy/numeracy, yet think that they can work in an office, etc, often are happy to accept the help if it enables them to achieve their goal.

theres nothing wrong with testing people but these tests on back to work courses are extremely basic. i have given examples of what they are like on another post. they also make people do them again who have been on the course before and past the test.