NHS Dentistry Petition

kenshaz

Toothsmith wrote:

Funny how when I posted on another thread the theory that Cordial and CVID were one and the same person, I received 2 PMs from people who had also noticed a similarity in their style of writing, and one of those PMers mentioned that RainbowInTheSpray had a very similar style and popped up on similar threads as well.

Care to comment RITS/CVID/Cordial?

Why do you have to resort to personal comparisons,accept adverse comments and refrain from attacking those who disagree.

I have never had a TV dinner in my life,I eat at the table with my family and a bottle of wine.Being a dentist is not a prerequisite for culture.

RainbowsInTheSpray

... and then there's the much greater chance of it just being co-incidence, isn't there??

But of course, I wouldn't like to deprive you of your wish to use tasteless tactics to deliberately avoid answering my point, as you have done so obviously.

You know, I had considerable sympathy for your case when I last came on this health forum but I told you THEN that IMHO you were storing up trouble for yourselves as a 'profession' by not offering to go at least some way to helping the country who paid for your education and training.

NOW I see that you personally are turning on others and calling them names or making offensive suggestions when they offer counter arguments. There is no reason, in such a situation, that I would want to associate myself further with your thread.

That is my 'comment'. I speak for myself and only myself.

Cheerio.

Toothsmith

RainbowsInTheSpray wrote:

You know, I had considerable sympathy for your case when I last came on this health forum but I told you THEN that IMHO you were storing up trouble for yourselves as a 'profession' by not offering to go at least some way to helping the country who paid for your education and training.

I think that was HERE

And again, all 3 of 'you' appeared within minutes of each other, and it wasn't RainbowInTheSpray who gave any such warning!

Slipping out of character a bit?

Toothsmith

kenshaz wrote:

Well I certainly motivated your interest,rooting through my posts,no problem feel free.
I am happy to discuss the theme of this thread without personal remarks,you have actually surprised me .

OK then,

So without resorting to concentration camps or illegal legislation that infringes human rights, how does a system with no money in it (See all the local & national newspaper articles) increase the number of dentists within the NHS?

Raid civil service pensions maybe?


THIS Link has just popped into my inbox BTW. From Wales this time.

KDH_2

kenshaz wrote:

You still haven't answered my questions about earnings.

Return to the NHS and the funding would be available,I am sure that the general public would pay a little more

On the first count- there would be NO MORE funding ...that is pie in the sky!

On the second- we now have a scenario where a filling done on the NHS this time last year cost £6.20 - the same filling now is £42.40 -- and remember it's Gordon Brown who gets that money, not the dentist......one of the best stealth taxes he's yet introduced!

I have a colleague who was offered a contract last year where, for each check up he did the goverment were paying him £13.98 while asking the patient to pay £15.50. If you think about it on a day where he did only check up's he would have to PAY the government his excess takings each day

domdent

if the problem was just denists going private the new contract would have solved this.

over 80% of dentists have signed up to the new contract

unless the 20% who left did considerably more than 20 % of the nations dental work the new ways of working will have solved the problem.

The problem with access to nhs dentistry is not the dental profession but the people who plan the workforce and fund the service.

compare to physiotherapists we now see unemployment for new graduates as the cash limited sevice cannot employ more physio's which have been trained to meet a supposed lack of supply.

The same will happen in dentistry as all the new graduates will struggle to find jobs in a shrinking service.

kenshaz

KDH wrote:

On the first count- there would be NO MORE funding ...that is pie in the sky!

On the second- we now have a scenario where a filling done on the NHS this time last year cost £6.20 - the same filling now is £42.40 -- and remember it's Gordon Brown who gets that money, not the dentist......one of the best stealth taxes he's yet introduced!

I have a colleague who was offered a contract last year where, for each check up he did the goverment were paying him £13.98 while asking the patient to pay £15.50. If you think about it on a day where he did only check up's he would have to PAY the government his excess takings each day

I am prepared to listen to valid arguments,and points are valid,what you describe is obviously over simplified,but from my impression of the contract there are also win situations for both the dentist and the patient and overall it is fair.
I respect you for remaining within the NHS,the population ratio to dentists has not changed to the extent that reflects the shortage of NHS dentists ,therefore jumping on the private band-wagon has brought about this scenario.
I will also admit that Gordon Brown self declared PM ,is a master of stealth tax.

domdent

quote "the population ratio to dentists has not changed to the extent that reflects the shortage of NHS dentists"

How do you know what the treament needs of the population are now compared to 10 years ago ?

The demographic shift has caused a reduction in the % of the population with no teeth , to a coresponding increase of older people with teeth needing more expensive and time consuming dentistry.

Combine that with an expected rise in quality of service and patient experience and you need alot more denists to treat the same number of people.

unfortunately in a democracy there will always be a limit that can be spent on a sector of health care and the dental NHS budget would have to triple (not going to happen) to give the population modern dentistry with no restrictions on service or access.

Savvy_Sue

kenshaz wrote:

Why can't posters get an NHS dentist?
Because they have all gone private and please do not believe that adding your name to a petition will change that situation.
Why are the dentists leading the fight against this contract ?
I find it difficult to believe that they are defending the consumer,why?
If they really cared they would open the doors to those who really need care ,not increase cosmetic procedures.

I have, until last week, used an NHS dentist with increasing unease. Last week the surgery confirmed that a checkup for me was allocated 10 minutes, and for each of my children 5 minutes. So 3 of us are in and out of his surgery in 20 minutes. There is no time to do any minor procedures, like painting fissure sealant on the children's teeth - I have to take them back for a separate appointment. And I have no idea how much time is allocated between appointments for infection control procedures or even basic cleaning. I'm glad we usually have the first appointment of the day ...

kenshaz wrote:

We are talking about the fundamental right to health care and the present situation whereby a state trained dentist can decide to opt out.

If we had a shortage of barristers ,well yes legislation would need to be enacted.

One option would be incentives for foreign dentists,and prohibitive legislation for those who do not take on NHS patients.

There have been incentives for foreign dentists, and I've had a few of them. Their English may be impeccable, but that doesn't mean they can communicate well. I'm not saying all dentists whose mother tongue is English are good at it either, but the foreign ones I've had have concerned me the most with their failure to communicate.

And what is to happen to the state provided dentistry services in their countries of origin, if we entice them over here? There has been a huge outcry against qualified nurses being recruited to work in the UK leaving a desperate need in their home countries.

And please don't make me laugh: if there was a shortage of barristers, they'd find a way round any legislation to compel them to work for the state ...

kenshaz wrote:

We are in the EU ,movement of labour is a right ,but should also be encouraged,if more NHS dentists became available ,the majority of patients would abandon the private sector and prevent private dentistry from flourishing.

I don't think I'm ever going back to an NHS dentist again. See this thread for a comparison ... And I don't think it's going to cost me and DH significantly more than we've been paying for the NHS service in the long run. Yes, we'll have to pay for the children, but they're almost adults now anyway, and at least I'll be teaching them that it's worth paying to look after your teeth.

So that's space for 5 NHS patients on a list in Bristol - not that there are lists any more - and you're all very welcome to them. Before you rush to take advantage of this, I found that asking around my friends for recommendations, a significant number of them said "We used to be with Dr X, but ..."

Fair enough, he may just not be a very good dentist, but he's not the first not very good NHS dentist I've had, and I just don't see how you CAN be a good NHS dentist under this new contract. Root canal filling in half an hour, anyone?

Toothsmith

kenshaz wrote:

I am prepared to listen to valid arguments,and points are valid,what you describe is obviously over simplified,but from my impression of the contract there are also win situations for both the dentist and the patient and overall it is fair.

Why is it obviously oversimplified? It is the farce of the 'new contract' in a nutshell.

And do enlighten us all as to the win situation for the dentist please.

The ONLY person to gain from this contract (And then it's only theoretical), is the patient who has a shedful of dental work that needs doing.

A regular patient who only needs the odd item of treatment every few visits will now be paying £42.40 each time they need an old filling replacing (As they tend to go one at a time) instead of the £10-£20 per filling before the contract. each time they need a single crown, it will now be £189 instead of about £60.

The person who 'saves up' their dental work until they have a really broken down mouth, will only ever pay £189 tops, nomatter how much work needs doing.

BUT, as the dentist only gets a maximum of 12 'UDAs' (And as you've seen above, one UDA can have a financial value as low as £13.98) for the above patient, patients like this will be very lucky to find a dentist willing to take them on.

The New contract is bad for dentists, and disaterous for patients who rely on the NHS.

Sign the petition.