NHS Dentistry Petition

kenshaz

No why are you concerned ,when you are private?

buddingdentist

Kenshaz, has it ever occurred to you that a dentist may actually be concerned about what is best for the patient? Your vitriolic posts seem to come from an assumption that every member of the profession is out to earn as much money from the patient while ignoring their needs.

OK so you may say I'm biased as I'm planning to be a dentist myself, but as part of my decision making process before going to uni I've spent time with more than a dozen different dentists (NHS and private) and I did not see one who wasn't 100% dedicated to providing the best possible care for their patients.

The NHS dentists struggled to get through the patient list they had each day so they could hit their government targets and there was no time for providing education on oral hygiene or for discussion of treatment options and what would be best for the patient. Many dentists I have spoken to have decided that life is stressful enough without the unrelenting pressure of the target treadmill while providing sub-optimum care and that's why they have given up on NHS care after many years.

I think anyone who reads the postings on this board is probably getting a little tired of your rantings!

Toothsmith

kenshaz wrote:

No why are you concerned ,when you are private?

That sums up your misunderstanding of me and dentistry in general perfectly.

I care because I am a dentist, trained at great expense to provide dentistry of a high quality in the 21st century. I was never trained to provide 'NHS dentistry' just the best dentistry I could provide. When I qualified, I didn't have to compromise much on what I'd been taught in order to do my dentistry, and make a living on the NHS.

As time went on though, more and more compromises crept in.

Government policy is taking dentistry back to the 1950s.

It is not somewhere I wish to go, and it is not somewhere I want to take any patients that rely on me for care.

There are some dentists and dental practices in areas where all the local population want is the tooth that hurts taking out. For them, the NHS as it is at the moment may well be fine.

Personally though, I believe that attitude to dental health is not right, and patients should be educated to expect better - and have better available care.

I would love to take my patients - who are just the same patients I had when I was NHS - back into the NHS.

Plus, it was only in April that I stopped seeing kids on the NHS - up until then I had subsidised their care to an acceptable standard from the private side of the practice.

I would only go back to the NHS though if I could provide the sort of dentistry that I am now doing.

In the last 8 years since I flew my cage though, me and the NHS have become so far apart, I very much doubt that will ever happen.

Bagpuss741

I've signed the petition Toothsmith, Hope it helps.

kenshaz

If some dentists really cared about the patient ,they would remain within the NHS and work within the guide-lines for change ,not jump ship and shout from the side-lines.

The point about division by locality relative to dental needs ,reveals your desire for treatment by selection and economic ability to pay.

Trained at our great expense ,so that you can conduct your business from a private platform.

So you only treat those who can pay ,how many doctors adopt that philosophy ,none that I know.The top consultants ,still see NHS patients ,but you only treat those that you can invoice.
The analogy speaks volumes.

Toothsmith

kenshaz wrote:

If some dentists really cared about the patient ,they would remain within the NHS and work within the guide-lines for change ,not jump ship and shout from the side-lines.

We obvoiusly have different defenitions of 'care'.

I do not see inflicting 1950s dentistry on people and pretending it's the best I can do as very caring.

If I did the best dentistry I could do within the NHS fee structure, my practice wouldn't exist within a couple of months.

How many Drs or consultants own the infrastructure they work in, or are responsible for paying the staff they work with?

If they did, they would need to ensure the financial security of their businesses as well.

If a hospital had a debt of tens of millions in that situation, it would be shut down by the banks.

If the NHS owned and maintained my premesis and paid my staff, and me a salary with holiday pay, sick pay and all that goes with it, then chances are I would still be an NHS dentist.

I would guess you've been an employee all your life Kenshaz, and now you have a nice index linked civil service final salary pension, probably even including a widows pension.

That's fine for you.

You have no idea how dentistry works, either within the NHS or out of it. You have no idea of why it has been falling to pieces for the last 10 years and you have no idea of the pressures of running a business.

Your arguments are looking sillier and sillier. Take some time out to read around the problem before delighting us all with some more opinions.

kenshaz

The use of the emotive term 1950's,means absolutely nothing,there is no comparison between modern 21st century NHS treatment and the 20th.Would you be prepared to go before your governing body and substantiate that view,it would then be your arguments that look sillier and sillier.I feel that you are bringing your profession into disrepute,and my advice would be for you to refrain from such comments.

I personally am very proud of the NHS in all spheres and I find it extremely distasteful when some-one who has benefited from it's advancements from within and has decided to leave for monetary reasons decides to throw stones.
The rights and achievements that we now take for granted have been fought for by politicians and the public over many decades and it does not sit easily when a private dentist decides to petition anti NHS feelings.

Toothsmith

In the 1950s dentistry was all about extractions & dentures.

With 12 UDAs on offer for extracting a tooth now and replacing it with a denture, yet only 3 UDA for spending 1-2 hours doing a root filling to save it, which do you think the 'New Contract' is encouraging?

Dental labs up and down the country are reporting a huge increase in requests for single unit dentures. Dentistry is returning to the 1950s.

FACT.

Oh - and that IS what my 'governing body' is telling the Government if only you'd bother to read a bit about a subject before becoming an expert in it!


EDIT - You added this bit after I'd posted

kenshaz wrote:

I find it extremely distasteful when some-one who has benefited from it's advancements from within and has decided to leave for monetary reasons decides to throw stones.

Go on then Kenshaz, let me know what 'advancements' the NHS has made to dentistry?

There was me thinking it was dentists who made advancements to dentistry!

Implants, ceramics, white filling technology, bonding technology, digital x-rays, rotary endodontic instruments, carbon fibre posts, .............

ALL of them have been developed by private industry working with academic dentists in many countries (mostly abroad) and even the ones in this country are in posts who's education budget (Education, note, NOT NHS) are subsidised by industry.

And another thing these advancements all have in common :-


YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO USE ANY OF THEM ON NHS FEES!!!!!!!!!!

I am throwing stones to show up the NHS dental service for the charade it is, in the hope that when it is put to sleep, something decent may take it's place that is more worthy of a developed country in the 21st century.

If you knew the difference, you would be agreeing with me.

As it is, you are giving me plenty of opportunities to highlight it's failings!

lin473

I've just ploughed my way through this thread and looked up the links to try to get my head round what is happening to NHS dentistry.
I went to the dentist today .
I have needed a fair bit of treatment last year ,probably partly due to the condition I have developed which gives me a very dry mouth which (I am told)
increases tooth decay.
Fortunately I am exept and have an NHS dentist otherwise it would have made a hefty dent in the household budget.
Today I needed a crown ,but have been given a temporary filling as my dentist has exceeded his/my( ) limit and have been told to come back in April when the funds will be available to treat me!
Needless to say,I have signed the petition!
How frustrating for him as well as me.

kenshaz

Hospital dental services
Dentists are employed on a salaried basis in the dental departments of many UK hospitals in a variety of positions from a junior house officer to a consultant in charge of a department. Hospital dentists may specialise in areas such as orthodontics, oral surgery and restorative dentistry. Competition for senior hospital posts is very keen and it is essential to gain postgraduate dental qualifications for advancement.

The above receive a salary and are within the NHS.