Credit scoring, experian & cancelling memberships?

Dr_Cuckoo3

savagej wrote: »

The booklets that you get from banks on credit scoring need to be updated as now you will have one credit score based on this type of data contained within your credit file, and it will be amalgamated with data you supply about employment status, income, and time with employer etc. Then a further credit score is generated on the basis of whether or not you are deemed to be able to afford the debt, as lenders must be seen to be "responsible", then another score is calculated solely on the basis of whether or not you are considered to be over-indebted already. These two seem very similar but are in fact different.

Which bank has the most up to date booklet / website informing customers of the information they send to CRAs ?

https://www.ulsterbanksecure.co.uk/ulster/docs/terms.jsp

"We can provide the names and addresses of the credit reference and fraud prevention agencies we use if you would like a copy of your information held by them, please contact Ulster Bank Cards, PO Box 244, Belfast BT2 7AY. The agencies may charge a fee.

I have a feeling it would be easier and cheaper just to list the CRAs and FPAs in the booklets / website

I suspect that they do not really want the customer to know and I doubt that many people go to the trouble to ask

From a consumer point of view I want to know what information they pass to CRAs etc :think:

If I order my credit file I can see that the bank has provided; name, address , DOB , application type , time at address

But not "salary data supplied by consumers during the credit application process" :think:

Callcredit admit that the Banks send them this data

http://www.callcredit.co.uk/media/53069/ycfev5.1.pdf

"Does Callcredit hold information about me which is not included on my credit file?
Certain information processed by Callcredit relating to you is not included on your credit file. This includes information relating to an
assessment of your potential overindebtedness. This information is held separately from your credit data, and is used to assist
contributing member organisations in the calculation of a debt to income ratio which may be used to assess affordability.
What information, held separately from my credit information, is used to assess my potential overindebtedness?
This information has been compiled as a direct result of a Government-led initiative, supported by the Financial Services Authority, in a bid to help with responsible lending to protect consumers. Callcredit has worked with the major clearing banks to help develop the ‘Over-indebtedness Initiative’, which involves the collation and supply of information to all member banks.
The information collated includes values derived from current account credit turnover, plus salary data supplied by consumers during the credit application process.
The contributing banks utilise this information in their lending decisions. Callcredit does not make these decisions; we merely act as a data holder for this information."


No one on this forum has seen this data and most are not aware that banks use their data in this way , they are happy to sign up to Callcredit's www.noddle.co.uk nevertheless

note that the CRA omits to mention how consumers can see this data and check that it is accurate

http://shop.virginmedia.com/the-legal-stuff/credit-check.html
"Please contact the Virgin Media Group Compliance Officer at Media House, Bartley Wood Business Park, Hook, Hampshire, RG27 9UP if you want to receive details of the relevant fraud prevention agencies. You have a legal right to these details. "

Oh yes "You have a legal right ! " to the information they don't mind you knowing about

Now , which banks pass applicants salary data to CRAs ? - do I have a legal right to know that :whistle:

Dr_Cuckoo3

savagej wrote: »

It was before the wheatsheaf design, I am going back to about 1987 (but I think the card had been issued from about 1983 onwards) here until the new design was introduced, which was mid to late 1990's.

I think it was this one

savagej

Yep, it was many years before that one. I saw it for the first time about 1985.

Indeed, on the subject of salary information! You can find details of the academic work done on affordability and over-indebtedness using Google. I will try to find it. It either takes the information already provided or has an educated guess based on your outstanding credit what your available income is. I think they hold everything from the photocopy of my passport and hence my passport number and photograph which they could be looking at biometrics on, to my shopping habits, to what is on my CV (they are in the business of CV matching too) and what professional bodies I am a member of, and the list goes on.... It makes me think back to when I took my banking exams and the concept of complete and utter client-bank confidentiality, which seems to have gone down the plughole in favour of preventing fraud, but to whose benefit is that, I wonder....mmmm.... They will of course state that it is the customer who wins in the end with cheaper loans, a shame they don't do anything with the credit interest rates, and why do the retail banks profits increase year on year when the customer is supposed to be the major benifactor from all of this data sharing. I would consider any data given to a bank "up for grabs" until you know otherwise.

They also provide statistical analysis based on all of these data types which they sell. To make money out of something as untangeable as data is quite a trick and to make money out of other peoples misery is a nice little earner too. When you give your data to Experian they state you are signing away all of your rights to it in their favour in the terms and conditions of Credit Expert, including copies of the ID you send in. What you don't find in the Ulster literature or that of any other bank at the moment is what exactly they do pass on to the credit and fraud prevention agencies.

Those social housing rent arrears stats are quite shocking, I can see what is in it for Experian who like the idea (in fact in the US it is all the rage with all types of landlord) and they can make more money out of it by giving a full match in terms of ID verification with the data, they need the electoral roll and two pieces of bureau data apparently. Plus they can sign up more landlords to their services. What I can't see is why the Big Issue is so in favour of it, with those arrears levels being the way they are. Of course, Experian in their summation, only give out the postives to the customers, such as less need to provide hardcopies of ID and better acceptable rates and risk based pricing, they don't bother to go in to what they gain from it.

Dr_Cuckoo3

I'm interested in the CRA products used by each bank and the extra data they send to the CRA

savagej wrote: »

When you give your data to Experian they state you are signing away all of your rights to it in their favour in the terms and conditions of Credit Expert,

Yes , they rely on consent to justify what they do - even the statutory report order forms require more than "name and address - send the file" (which no doubt the ICO approve of)

savagej wrote: »

Those social housing rent arrears stats are quite shocking, I can see what is in it for Experian who like the idea

I suspect that the rent arrears stats only show serious arrears and not a few days late , quite few of these tenants will claim housing benefit and refrain from paying rent until that is paid
- and the British Gas style of CRA reporting will affect more than the number of tenants with rent arrears in the stats

savagej wrote: »

What I can't see is why the Big Issue is so in favour of it, with those arrears levels being the way they are

They are probably from the same planet as The Fairbanking Foundation charity

savagej

I should add that the salary details are not given out just once, they are updated on a regular basis from current account data. Plus I suspect a banking relationship in general which includes a current account. So the bank may see a fall coming, then the CRA will see it, then the CRA can drop your score for your other creditors and hence your credit card limit with a completely different company is slashed and the APR hits the roof.

Edit: Fairbanking and thinkbanking seem like rather similar names to me, lol.

Another edit: The stats produced on affordability and over-indebtedness are based on populations and are probabilities, so although you find yourself a victim of limit slashing and APR hiking etc. It is not actually based on you personally but a single individual in the population with something similar at some point defaulted. It is rather like NICE and cancer drugs, they decided that an entire group of people cannot be given them as the overall benefit to the population of patients is small but you might be the one patient in 100 that does well on it and it gives you an extra year of life. The example is back to front but I hope makes some sense.

savagej

The bottom section of this page from Callcredit's website gives an excellent description of just how people are targeted, or scored.

http://www.callcredit.co.uk/products-and-services/credit-risk-and-affordability/the-affordability-suite


"GeoDebt is a powerful and unique postcode level segmentation tool that gives you an informed assessment on the ability to repay.
The index blends outgoing commitments together with affluence, economic and lifestyle characteristics. The data is then modelled to postcode level and delivered as a postcode index ranging from 1-100. The most over-indebted postcode areas are represented by a low index, with the least indebted people being at the top of the index."

Where did the affluence, economic and lifestyle data come from? Who gave permission to "blend" it (I like the use of language there) with commitments from CRA data? Who are they supplying this information to and for what?

I hope this once and for all ends the "credit reference agencies don't provide credit hence they don't provide scores, or accurate scores", nonsense, seen on here. They provide many many scores based on all sorts of different pieces of your and my data. The companies given them are obviously taught how to interpret the scores.

savagej

What this one show's is I think a retrograde step as credit files were separated so other members of a household could not affect you and now the state of your neighbours finances is affecting whether or not you are considered to be a good risk or not.

izools

savagej wrote: »

I hope this once and for all ends the "credit reference agencies don't provide credit hence they don't provide scores, or accurate scores", nonsense, seen on here

I think the complaints we make about the "Scores" that CRAs sell users; is more about what you allude to - in regards that the score they provide us with doesn't take into account geodemographics, affordability, stability, indebtness index, etc.

I know, just as you do, that whilst the CRAs hold, use, and share data and data analisys processes in regards to affordability (et al) they don't share this data with us (as part of the "score"), thereby leaving things like the credit expert "score" just as useless as I / we claim them to be.

I think a retrograde step as credit files were separated so other members of a household could not affect you and now the state of your neighbours finances is affecting whether or not you are considered to be a good risk or not.

^^ This.

Dr_Cuckoo3

izools wrote: »

whilst the CRAs hold, use, and share data and data analisys processes in regards to affordability (et al) they don't share this data with us (as part of the "score"),

They should be forced to disclose this data in the Statutory Credit report

The Statutory Credit report should show all the information held by CRAs that banks take into account

candun

Hi

Can someone please shed some light on this for me, i recently went in to Barclays to apply for thier cash card account as it came with a debit card, the reason for applying for this account was because when i applied for the regular account it was declined, i know why this was as i was bankrupt 2 years ago but now discharged, anyway when in the bank i noticed on the screen it had CIFAS warning, when i spoke to the personal banker he became very uncomfortable about the fact i saw this on the screen and then proceded to tell me i couldnt have the account and i should check my credit file.

However unknown to him i already have access to my credit file and i know that i have no entries under CIFAS. I decided i would send off to CIFAS an access request and it turns out santander have filed a CIFAS last year for application fraud because i didnt put my mums address down where i had lived all for 2 months........so i will be disputing this with santander.

But why would CIFAS have this recorded but its not shown on my experian credit file, i am now thinking this is why i am finding it hard to get a bisic bank account. The strange thing is i recently got a credit card with capital one and a pay monthly contract phone, im no fraudster and feel really annoyed, i had to go bankrupt through illness and its not something i was proud of doing but was unable to work for half a year, im fine now but just trying to rebuild my credit.

Any advice of help would be good, thanks in advance