Tyres - What is the Truth?

AMO

mikey72 wrote: »

Rolling resistance is mainly caused by the sidewalll deforming at the bottom when you roll. Not the tread sticking to the road and having to be pulled off.
It'll still deform just a much on ice, oil, and on good tarmac, regardless of friction.
So grip doesn't have a lot of effect on rolling resistance.
Another way to overcome it is to keep the tyres pumped up, so they have to deform less when they move, and so take less energy.

Hi Mikey. Thanks for that. But let me argue it another way in laymans terms. Are you saying that there is no link between softening the rubber with silica to get good grip on the ground and MPG? Companies like Michelin go out of their way to create tyres like Primacy to give maximum grip with high levels of silica and their patented tread and then lower the amount in their 'energy' version to give better fuel performance - but it is noticeable that by doing so, wet grip ability drops.

In essense, are you telling me that there is a tyre out there with very good grip (high levels of silica mixed into the rubber compound) that will rank extremely high in fuel performance also?

Good grip mean more of a stick-type contact with the ground. If you want bad grip we'd drive around in metal tyres. Anyone walking on tarmac will tell you they are less likely to fall than when walking on a sheet of metal especially if you then change the situation and make it wet.

The same basic principle applies with tyres.

mikey72

AMO wrote: »

Hi Mikey. Thanks for that. But let me argue it another way in laymans terms. Are you saying that there is no link between softening the rubber with silica to get good grip on the ground and MPG? Companies like Michelin go out of their way to create tyres like Primacy to give maximum grip with high levels of silica and their patented tread and then lower the amount in their 'energy' version to give better fuel performance - but it is noticeable that by doing so, wet grip ability drops.

In essense, are you telling me that there is a tyre out there with very good grip (high levels of silica mixed into the rubber compound) that will rank extremely high in fuel performance also?

Good grip mean more of a stick-type contact with the ground. If you want bad grip we'd drive around in metal tyres. Anyone walking on tarmac will tell you they are less likely to fall than when walking on a sheet of metal especially if you then change the situation and make it wet.

The same basic principle applies with tyres.

Everything's a trade off.

You're getting mixed up on eco tyres, with low rolling resistance, and budget tyres, which aren't eco tyres.
Silica, (or sand, if if want it simple) is hard to work in a tyre, so gets left out of budget tyres to make them easier, and cheaper to make.
But in itself doesn't do much to affect rolling resistance.

It is easy to imagine that a good tyre is "sticky" and that's what makes it harder to turn. In reallity it's the shear, (or when the tyre stops holding "downwards", and begins to slide sideways) that mostly affects what you think of grip when driving.

The sidewall is what mainly affects an eco tyre, as that's what you have to deform to get the wheel to turn, and what fights the rolling forward.

Imagine a fully inflated tyre and a flat tyre being pushed, if you need a simple picture of the effect.

tomstickland

My experience is that really cheap tyres provide near dangerous lack of grip in wet conditions.
There are budget performance tyres from people like Kuhmo.
I like big brands like Goodyear, Toyo etc.

The price difference between rubbish and big brands is very small on places like Blackcircles and mytyres Protyre etc.

AMO

Wig wrote: »

It is definatly the case, £28 fully fitted (6 months ago), you have to go to your local independent tyre fitters to get that price, none of this internet rubbish. I have two fitters near me who both quote in that price range. And the fitter I used was cheaper than blackcircles across the board he could source any tyre within 24 hours and fit it for less than Blackcircles.

Obviously Rubber prices rise and so maybe they are quoting £29 now.

I see. I've not been quoted those kind of figures at my local. Anyway, from what I've seen with BlackCircles, their cheapest of the cheap is the worst of the budget tyres.

I would imagine that getting the £28 tyres would be likely the worst of the budget range also.

Glad to hear that you've found them to be okay. I think I'll steer clear though.

I think its very much like ASDA - if you can't tell the difference, why pay the difference. I didn't think I would be able to tell the difference, but trying budget tyres, I was proved wrong when I skidded, so I guess I'm one that willl pay the difference now.

jase1

The point with ultra-budget tyres is surely not that the best premium tyres outperform them, but the next step up usually outperforms them comfortably as well.

In other words; yes, the ultra-budgets are crap, but that's no reason to spend £80 rather than £40 for a tyre. Just spend £45 on a reasonable budget from a known manufacturer (most likely Korean) and you get most of the benefit of the £80 tyre for still half the price.

I have never seen a review where a base-line Khumo, for example, has been significantly behind the leaders for grip. Wet stopping distances are usually something like:

Market leader = +0m (the benchmark)
Mid-range = +1 or 2 m
Base-spec Korean = +2 or 3m
Cheap Chinese horror = +8 or 9m

The ultra-cheap tyre is bad, but the difference between the market leader and the Korean is not going to be noticed if you don't drive on the edge.

sunshinetours

Wig wrote: »

It is definatly the case, £28 fully fitted (6 months ago), you have to go to your local independent tyre fitters to get that price, none of this internet rubbish. I have two fitters near me who both quote in that price range. And the fitter I used was cheaper than blackcircles across the board he could source any tyre within 24 hours and fit it for less than Blackcircles.

Obviously Rubber prices rise and so maybe they are quoting £29 now.

So you could have probably got some sticky Yokohama's for less than £45 - the difference is not as big in price as you suggest is all that's being said here. Clearly you don;t accept any difference in performance which is just your opinion but no need to stretch the truth on price differences

French_Knickers

FineBoneChina wrote: »

Q. Someone mentioned to me that supposedly "Kleber" are in fact "Continental" tyres. Is this correct, or is this a load of old cobblers?

Thanks

I think you'll find cobblers make shoes, not tyres!

Wig

sunshinetours wrote: »

So you could have probably got some sticky Yokohama's for less than £45 - the difference is not as big in price as you suggest is all that's being said here. Clearly you don;t accept any difference in performance which is just your opinion but no need to stretch the truth on price differences

I'm not stretching any truth by pointing out the prices and saying that it's almost double the price. Can't see what your problem is.

What are you talking about yokohamas for less than £45 where did you get that from? Blackcircles has them on special offer at £49.50

I wouldn't care if it was only £5 in it. I'd still go for the cheapest because there is no difference between them.

And I'm not the one who brought up prices in the first place, price differences are irrelevant to me, the only relevant factor to me is which tyre is the cheapest. Someone brought up prices and I responded with what I considered to be my available price range, and I asked him what point he thought he was making seeing as I see no difference in performance anyway, so why do I care about the difference in price?

rodenal

Wig wrote: »

I'm not stretching any truth by pointing out the prices and saying that it's almost double the price. Can't see what your problem is.

What are you talking about yokohamas for less than £45 where did you get that from? Blackcircles has them on special offer at £49.50

I wouldn't care if it was only £5 in it. I'd still go for the cheapest because there is no difference between them.

And I'm not the one who brought up prices in the first place, price differences are irrelevant to me, the only relevant factor to me is which tyre is the cheapest. Someone brought up prices and I responded with what I considered to be my available price range, and I asked him what point he thought he was making seeing as I see no difference in performance anyway, so why do I care about the difference in price?

Stop making this statement, it is NOT correct. You cannot find a difference, that's fine but your statements are simply false I'm afraid, I've experienced the difference first hand as have many others.

As before its completely your choice idyl you want to put on the cheapest of the cheap and that's fine. Cheap tyres are NOT equivalent to a decent l mid range or performance Tyre and WILL offer less grip particularly on wet surfaces.

Please do some research on the subject, there is plenty online to back up what I'm saying. Stop stating this nonsense as fact, please!

sunshinetours

Wig wrote: »

I'm not stretching any truth by pointing out the prices and saying that it's almost double the price. Can't see what your problem is.

I don't have a problem as I drive on Continentals for8 months of year and Goodyear winters for the remaining 4. I just hope people like you aren't driving behind me in wet or icy weather......

And you are stretching the truth as your prices are already shown not to be representative of what you could achieve

What are you talking about yokohamas for less than £45 where did you get that from? Blackcircles has them on special offer at £49.50

I wouldn't care if it was only £5 in it. I'd still go for the cheapest because there is no difference between them

.

Fair enough you buy purely on price rather than what offers best value for money - many don't understand the difference in that. That is very similar as buying purely for the name at the end of the day

And I'm not the one who brought up prices in the first place, price differences are irrelevant to me, the only relevant factor to me is which tyre is the cheapest. Someone brought up prices and I responded with what I considered to be my available price range, and I asked him what point he thought he was making seeing as I see no difference in performance anyway, so why do I care about the difference in price?

As previously, one persons annecdotal evidence as to them not seeing any difference on premium vs budget tyres means nothing. I appreciate you will continue to buy purely the cheapest tyres you can find as is your right. One can only hope they continue to serve you well.....