TCP parking notice in a hospital

geordieracer

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes, they should label a lot of bays in the main car park as disabled. I was trying to help - the hospital has broken the law here.

What law have they broken out of interest?

Coupon-mad

geordieracer wrote: »

What law have they broken out of interest?

Equality Act 2010 - it incorporates the old Disability Discrimination Act and improves on it.

IMHO a lack of disabled bays a clear breach unless they can show if challenged, that their provision of such bays was adequate and reasonable. It seems that is not the case here from what was described - and I know a lot of similar hospitals with a woeful lack of disabled bays.

Like all services and retailers, they have a duty to provide reasonable adjustments for disabled service users. It would not seem reasonable or sufficient to just provide a very small percentage of disabled bays when there is a large car park, not when you consider that a hospital will of course have more disabled visitors and service-users than other public services.

They leave themselves open to being sued by a canny disabled person who is thwarted or unduly delayed from attending an appointment or visiting a relative. Effectively it puts disabled visitors to that car park at a disadvantage as they could argue that they have less chance to park than an able-bodied person (assuming they need the wide bay and/or to be fairly close to the entrance and cannot park in the main car park). If the inability to park caused them to miss an appointment, with health repercussions, or to miss seeing a dying relative (extreme example but possible) then the damages could be large.

Monetary damages are stated on various websites as the remedy for people who fall victim to a breach of this Act. There was a post on Consumer Action Group forums a couple of years ago where a canny person threatened to sue a Supermarket for just that - too few disabled bays for the size of the car park - and the retailer apparently paid a 4 figure sum out of Court to avoid a DDA breach Court case.

Here is a nice clear guide as to what services SHOULD be doing in order to comply with the Equality Act 2010:

http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/401727_EDF_Disability_acc.pdf

One quote on there says:

'Now, under the new Equality Act, adjustments must be made where disabled people experience a ‘substantial disadvantage’. This means that service providers may have to make more adjustments...it was previously possible for a service provider to legally justify failing to provide a reasonable adjustment in certain circumstances. Now, the only question is whether the adjustment is a reasonable one to make.'


HTH

geordieracer

But remember a lot of the DDA states - where practicable, if there isnt the space then where do they put them?. And you say reasonable - just how many disabled bays would you class as reasonable? These are all things a lot of hospitals take into consideration when sorting out their parking as they only have a finite amount of land to leave as car parking and this has to include non disabled person too and staff..

Im not saying that this hospital in question has the right nor wrong amount as i dont know it but remember if they are all full (as is the case on in my local hospital,often) then what can they do. Disabled people are not the only ones who use a hospital.

Coupon-mad

It's not the DDA nowadays, the Equality Act has clarified & improved on it.

Sorry I just edited my previous post to show a PDF of what a service has to do to comply. I think many hospitals FAIL, but that's just my opinion based on when I was a Disablilty Advice Manager in a service dealing specifically with the DDA (as it was then) and adjustments/provisions.

Disabled people may not be the only visitors but AFAIK they are the only ones who can claim damages if they are not provided with reasonable adjustments!

RENEGADE_2

Rebecca2210 wrote: »

Ps I assure you none of the funds from these notices go back to the hospital

Wooo. Hold your horses girl.

This message pertains to your second post, not the one I am using to get your attention. You note an "appeal" section from TCP. Whatever you do, if you write to them, DO NOT even hint at the word "appeal". That word is cancerous; it may appear that you accede to their authority. This is something you don't do. Obviously, you are safe to ignore the entire shooting match but should you wish to enter into correspondence with them, let it be known you EXPRESSLY DENY the debt. They don't even know you were the driver.

Note that I sympathise for persons in your situation. My ex-wife is a nurse and she has had to park in nearby estates. Luckily she hasn't had abuse but I am outraged that she should sometimes have to take risks by venturing onto public paths to get to work AFTER having driven 11 miles.

geordieracer

Fair enough i never saw your edit but ill read the thing in full tomorrow but from what you have quoted in your edited post is this

'Now, under the new Equality Act, adjustments must be made where disabled people experience a ‘substantial disadvantage’. This means that service providers may have to make more adjustments...it was previously possible for a service provider to legally justify failing to provide a reasonable adjustment in certain circumstances. Now, the only question is whether the adjustment is a reasonable one to make.'

The bolded bits are what stick out for me as giving lots of ways to get around it.. 'May' is not 'Must' and reasonable one can always be defended by the Hospital pointing out that it would not be reasonable for them to make any further changes due to differing circumstances and due to cost such as outlined here in the document

What is reasonable will depend on all the
circumstances, including the cost of an adjustment,
the potential beneit it might bring to other
customers (ramps and automatic doors beneit
customers with small children or heavy luggage, for
example), the resources an organisation has and
how practical the changes are.

Especially- it could be argued that it would be taking away from other users and not a benefit to them at all.


Now this is in no way me saying that there are plenty disabled bays and no more should veer be created but it all falls into what is reasonable. Hospitals are big places but I would imagine that the majority of the users of hospitals are not Disabled and are there visiting or are out patients or just in for an op which may take a while(and thus not need parking) So Hospital management can always use this as to saying that they have provided sufficient and they cant provide any more as this would disadvantage the majority of users.


People need to look at the much bigger picture surrounding parking on sites that are not big enough to provide 'ample parking' for the disabled.Conversly on that they should always maintain that these bays are used by persons displaying their blue badge too

Coupon-mad

Agree with your points until your final sentence. Blue Badges do not apply on private land - no matter how much retailers, hospitals, other services and PPCs may like to pretend that they do.

T&Cs displayed on a sign cannot override the law which (basically) says that any disabled person can use a reasonable adjustment they need to - and the law covers disabled people from the very day of diagnosis. In a hospital that's very relevant - someone could get a cancer diagnosis and be asked to attend a clinic later that day. They would then be legally entitled to park in a private disabled bay, no Blue Badge and all...

Discriminating against a genuine disabled non-Blue Badge holder would most definitely be an Equality Act breach if the service provider 'knew or should have known' about the disability (hard for a hospital to cover their back with that excuse!).

Issuing a fake PCN and then hounding the person with threatograms is harassment which is also outlawed under the Equality Act.

esmerobbo

Slightly off track but one thing really hacks me off. I regularly go to a local hospital which has 6 disabled bays outside the outpatients. Luckily it has a designated disabled car park [80 places] further away and a mini bus that circles the hospital to take you were you need to go.

Outside the outpatients is a drop off pick up point. I see people drop the disabled person off at the entrance, then park in one of the bays near the entrance. Place the badge on the screen then walk in or wait in the car. So when a disabled "driver" comes they need to go to the car park.

I do wish sometimes people would think do I really need to park here, or should I leave it for someone who really does.

Getting back to the Nurses problem. The infamous Aintree hospital has one staff car park were there are always places! However you need to be a consultant to park in there!!!

birkee

WickedWolfie wrote: »

I sympathise BUT many staff have little choice but to drive to work due to pee-poor public transport and their working hours (I presume you DO want there to be night staff???). If they can't park they will look for work elsewhere - net result no staff which means the hospital at best massively overspends on temporary staff and at worst has to close anyway - neither of which will be exactly helpful to your wife.......

I also sympathise with staff who have difficulty travelling to work, and you make a good point, but, remember that if the patients can't get there, there will be no need for staff.

The point is, that what resources are available need to be managed efficiently.
Two of the main hospitals that my care falls under, both have steep hills up from the main car park, what sort of planks laid these out? They want kicking up the ****. When very limited disabled bays are available, how DO I get to the hospital at all, in a wheelchair?
Am I supposed to turn round and go home again? Sit waiting for a bay to become free, blocking the driveway, and missing my appointment?

My other hospital has pay and display even for disabled bays, which O.K. I can live with that, BUT, you have to pay in advance and display the ticket. Now, do I pay for one hour to cover my appointment? Or do I pay for three hours because of the notorious delays in hospital systems? Gets VERY pricey for three hours. Perhaps pay for one hour, and then get a parking ticket from the parking gestapo.

Sometimes, I really get the feeling that out patients are just a bloody nuisance to hospitals and they would like to get rid of them.

trisontana

birkee wrote: »

Sometimes, I really get the feeling that out patients are just a bloody nuisance to hospitals and they would like to get rid of them.

Or it could be that the car-park is managed by a private parking company that doesn't realize that a hospital car park is very different from one in a supermarket, and their "business model" has not taken into account the special circumstances of many of the patients (and staff).