Discuss the free solar panel company: A Shade Greener

simonhornby

One of the more boring things I have done with my life is to train in accountancy. To me the ASG numbers stack up.

I think you would have to be a complete numpty or incredibly lazy not to make a worthwhile saving using the ASG scheme.

Can you make more money doing it yourself?? Probably yes?? Providing you do not have to borrow money to pay for the system. Is it worth the hassle? - that's a question for the individual - but for me most definately not. I'll let ASG deal with the installation, legal (land registry and mortgage), maintenance and insurance issues.

But also.... Imagine this scenario. 10 or 15 years down the line HM Gov't of the day decides that it is politically unacceptable to use tax payers money to subsidise the profits of company's such as ASG and individuals with solar panel & wind turbines when everyone else has to pay market prices for electricity, and pulls the plug on FIT?

Who takes the hit? people who have shelled out for their own panels or ASG? For certain it won't be me!

Now I know this is pretty unlikely but if you want the profit you have to take the risk and this is precisely what ASG are doing.

By the way, the "toaster" reference I made earlier obviously refers to day time useage. Just in case you don't know, solar panels don't work very well in the dark!!!

Cardew

So good of you Simon to join MSE and give such unbiased views about ASG.

I would have thought an accountant would have the means to obtain finance for his own panels.

simonhornby

Cardew wrote: »

So good of you Simon to join MSE and give such unbiased views about ASG.

I would have thought an accountant would have the means to obtain finance for his own panels.

As someone who deals with accounts it is imperative that I stay squeaky clean and not fabricate false information in order to secure financing.

Firstly, As someone with the management accounts training I understand the "hidden" costs involved ie opportunity costs, depreciation, Net Present Values, capital costs etc. As I said on balance the numbers stack up in my opinion.

Secondly, I am unbiased. I am in no way connected to ASG except as being a new customer. I have not been paid by them and I do not have a hidden agenda to corrupt the minds of the innocent etc etc.

Quite simply, my research into this martket shows that ASG are the best performers. I suppose the is why they are market leaders.

Would you say that you were biased if you made a positive comment about Usain Bolts' skill at the 100m sprint? Or would you be just stating the obvious?

By the way for the person who implied that the figures they produce may be disingenuous, just bear these points in mind.

1. If ASG were making any misleading claims as to the benefits of using there scheme Advertising Standards would have thrown the book at them and the forums would be full of moaning minnies.

2. Google Search and try to find any negative comments from dissatisfied customers. There aren't any significant issues. Actually I only found happy customers - it seems ASG are doing EXACTLY what they say they are doing.

zeupater

simonhornby wrote: »

.... By the way for the person who implied that the figures they produce may be disingenuous, just bear these points in mind.

1. If ASG were making any misleading claims as to the benefits of using there scheme Advertising Standards would have thrown the book at them and the forums would be full of moaning minnies ....

Hi

... that's probably me ..... please consider my previous point .... "be wary of marketing claims without taking time to understand the reason for the specific wording of the claims and then attempting to validate whether the claim will apply in your own situation .... " ..... as it is totally relevant.

Studies & research by third parties, however flawed, are often referenced to support marketing claims .... let's consider some possible marketing wording resulting from research into the reduction of annual electricity bills after installing a particular pv offering ....

"... savings in the range of £20 to £250 ...."
"... savings averaging £100 ..."
"... saving up to £250 ..."

... of course, the majority of marketing literature would include the third ... why ? ... because marketing professionals know that the vast majority of consumers don't take the "time to understand the reason for the specific wording" and will simply register a saving of £250 without question ....

This is a strategy which is widely employed on the highstreet and elsewhere .... how many times have people seen "Sale, this weekend only - Was £[STRIKE]1800[/STRIKE], now £799, Save over £1000" before reading the small print and finding that the higher price was that charged two years ago and that numerous price reductions have resulted in the standard price at that and other stores has been £799 for the past 6 months, selective stores and selective periods excluded !! .... The wording is always specifically designed to ensure that the consumer cannot be classified as being intentionally mislead, therefore mitigating the risk of a negative ASA ruling ....

HTH
Z

Cardew

simonhornby wrote: »

1. If ASG were making any misleading claims as to the benefits of using there scheme Advertising Standards would have thrown the book at them and the forums would be full of moaning minnies.

Misleading Claims? I assume this is what you are referring too?

http://ashadegreener.co.uk/energy-study/

Hardly scientific is it? A reader's survey.

If you read through these forums you will find a common theme that people are hardly objective in their claims for anything they have bought or had fitted.

You will find the most outrageous claims for savings for all sorts of devices - 'magnets on fuel lines' decrease consumption by xx% cos it lines up the mollycules(sic).

There seems to be a self-congratultory trend, rather like your posts if I may say so.

I agree that amongst Rent a Roof firms, ASG seem to have an excellent reputation.

However before anyone commits to any R-A-R scheme they should:

Obtain some realistic figures in terms of ££££s of their likely savings. look at WHICH etc and seek their views.

Examine the possibility of financing the panels themselves(even with the lower rate of FIT) and collecting the subsidies available.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, do some research on the possibility of having difficulty obtaining mortgages, and/or selling a property with the house having a 25 year restriction in favour of the R-A-R firm.

It is appreciated that the ASG agreement is approved by the Council of mortgage lenders. - So what! it doesn't mean they have to grant a mortgage!

Read the posts by people who have difficulty buying, getting a mortgage, of solicitor's opinions and reluctance of people to buy with a 25 year agreement(lease) on the house.

In particular read WHICH's views on the R-A-R schemes in general and the reported difficulty in getting mortgages.

Just putting the other side of the coin you understand!

simonhornby

Forgive me but both Zeupater and Cardewhave such a downer on ASG I can hardly do anything but suspect they maybe involved with ASG's competitors.

To speak with such vehemence against a firm who is open, direct and does what it says on the tin seems a bit wierd to me.

When is it worth it to buy your own panels? - When you're absolutely certain you will be in the same property for longer than the payback time of the purchase and installlation cost (plus interest cost if money borrowed or interest lost if using your own money), maintenance cost (including replacement of the inverter twice in 25 year lease period ie buy 3 inverters), additional insurance for your home and public liability. Legal cost (land registry) and having the cost if a Structural survey and a qualified structural engineer calculate the loading on your roof structure. When all of these cost are covered you'll be raking it in.

However if you are likely to move within a few years it makes sense to have a company like ASG absorb the costs and you just get cheaper leccy.

BTW I have had a private message from another forum memeber who felt bullied by some other member for speaking positively of ASG - I do not accept bullys: So bring it on.

I have had ASG fit a system yesterday in miserable, grey cloudy weather and the output was still well over 700w (there is a meter on the inverter which show the exact output of the system) - the background useage of my house (obviously with no washing machine, kettle etc running) is easliy under 500w in daytime hours - can't wait for sunny weather the system should output approx 3.5kw.

So how can I possible not make a significant saving - it's a no-brainer

zeupater

simonhornby wrote: »

Forgive me but both Zeupater and Cardewhave such a downer on ASG I can hardly do anything but suspect they maybe involved with ASG's competitors.

To speak with such vehemence against a firm who is open, direct and does what it says on the tin seems a bit wierd to me.

When is it worth it to buy your own panels? - When you're absolutely certain you will be in the same property for longer than the payback time of the purchase and installlation cost (plus interest cost if money borrowed or interest lost if using your own money), maintenance cost (including replacement of the inverter twice in 25 year lease period ie buy 3 inverters), additional insurance for your home and public liability. Legal cost (land registry) and having the cost if a Structural survey and a qualified structural engineer calculate the loading on your roof structure. When all of these cost are covered you'll be raking it in.

However if you are likely to move within a few years it makes sense to have a company like ASG absorb the costs and you just get cheaper leccy.

BTW I have had a private message from another forum memeber who felt bullied by some other member for speaking positively of ASG - I do not accept bullys: So bring it on.

I have had ASG fit a system yesterday in miserable, grey cloudy weather and the output was still well over 700w (there is a meter on the inverter which show the exact output of the system) - the background useage of my house (obviously with no washing machine, kettle etc running) is easliy under 500w in daytime hours - can't wait for sunny weather the system should output approx 3.5kw.

So how can I possible not make a significant saving - it's a no-brainer

Hi Simon ...

For one who claims to be trained in accountancy and understands the "hidden" costs and "opportunities" I am absolutely astounded that the claims made within marketing literature have been regurgitated so readily without question ....

You've obviously made your own decision to have an RaR system and that's fine, however, there do see to be some contentious points within the referenced post above ....

I believe that there is a general consensus on this forum that ASG is one of the better RaR scheme operators, however, that doesn't mean that they would be naturally considered as being a 'honourable company', especially when carefully considering the marketing material ....

You seem to have an opinion regarding moving house and the relative benefits of RaR vs Owned and there is a view held by many, including housing/motgage sector experts and institutes, which is entirely opposite .... as many others see it you're simply betting a proportion of the selling value of your house for 25 years against a likely average annual energy-bill saving of somewhere around £100 ....

I am pro-solar and have owned various pv technology systems for a considerable time whilst Cardew holds a strong belief that pv would be more subsidy-cost-effective if installed on a farm-scale or large industrial array basis ... if you had taken a little time to read through the forum you would have realised that we don't naturally agree on too many points regarding the policies and politics surrounding pv, however, we do usually agree on issues regarding pv returns, capacity and capability - especially so when claims are 'massaged' within marketing literature ...

Regarding the receipt of a PM - this line of debate on pv and RaR has been raised before, and before and before .... each time supposition and claim is confronted by logic and evidence which simply leads to a similar defence based on either a combination of 'smoke & mirrors', more misleading claims and more supposition, or simply misplaced abuse - I, for one, believe in the more logical approach to debate ...

Please take a couple of days to read the various threads in order to understand the various viewpoints ..... as it is your initial post would simply look to many as if it was made by a marketing professional, or one expecting to take advantage of a commission based referal scheme, whether it is actually the case, or not ....

HTH
Z

simonhornby

zeupater wrote: »

Hi Simon ...

For one who claims to be trained in accountancy and understands the "hidden" costs and "opportunities" I am absolutely astounded that the claims made within marketing literature have been regurgitated so readily without question ....

You've obviously made your own decision to have an RaR system and that's fine, however, there do see to be some contentious points within the referenced post above ....

I believe that there is a general consensus on this forum that ASG is one of the better RaR scheme operators, however, that doesn't mean that they would be naturally considered as being a 'honourable company', especially when carefully considering the marketing material ....

You seem to have an opinion regarding moving house and the relative benefits of RaR vs Owned and there is a view held by many, including housing/motgage sector experts and institutes, which is entirely opposite .... as many others see it you're simply betting a proportion of the selling value of your house for 25 years against a likely average annual energy-bill saving of somewhere around £100 ....

I am pro-solar and have owned various pv technology systems for a considerable time whilst Cardew holds a strong belief that pv would be more subsidy-cost-effective if installed on a farm-scale or large industrial array basis ... if you had taken a little time to read through the forum you would have realised that we don't naturally agree on too many points regarding the policies and politics surrounding pv, however, we do usually agree on issues regarding pv returns, capacity and capability - especially so when claims are 'massaged' within marketing literature ...

Regarding the receipt of a PM - this line of debate on pv and RaR has been raised before, and before and before .... each time supposition and claim is confronted by logic and evidence which simply leads to a similar defence based on either a combination of 'smoke & mirrors', more misleading claims and more supposition, or simply misplaced abuse - I, for one, believe in the more logical approach to debate ...

Please take a couple of days to read the various threads in order to understand the various viewpoints ..... as it is your initial post would simply look to many as if it was made by a marketing professional, or one expecting to take advantage of a commission based referal scheme, whether it is actually the case, or not ....

HTH
Z

If ASG were deliberately misleading the public with false or substantially erroneous claims they would have had the book thrown at them by advertising/trading standards and their name would be mud.

There are too many happy customers for the scheme to be anything but worthwhile. The evidence speaks for itself.

Thousands of roof-tops IS a farm sized installation!!! Whether you like the look of the panel or not is a matter of personal choice - Personally, I still think they look 'kin awful but I am warming to them a bit.

Buy your own make sense ONLY as a long-term investment - you can check this using by the methods for determining the viability of a project as set down by the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants and the Association of Accounting Technicians.

Also, How long do you think it will be before FIT becomes taxable? - watch this space. Remember the Lib-Dems promise over Uni fees? What is said by the politcal glitteratti today does not necessarily mean it will hold true tomorrow.

There are guarantees built into the ASG deal - if, having fitted their system your property becomes unsellable due to their installaion - they will BUY YOUR HOUSE AT FULL MARKET PRICE. They only make this guarantee because they know the situation will not arise.

I have spent months trawling this and many other discussion boards and have read many thousands of posts. It seems that some people have perfectly reasonable concerns they need to satisfy before making a decison (as did I) but there is also a huge amount of rubbish and scare mongering by bar-room lawyers and the like (possibly even ASG competitors who are on the back-foot - who knows?). If you can sort the wheat from the chaff there are really only 2 schools of thought - Buy your own or lease the airspace above your property to a company.

My opinion is this: In simple terms, if you are going to stay in your house for many years to come serious consideration should be given to buying your own system. However, if you cannot be so certain about the longevity of your residence - lease seems more sensible to me.

Please remember, I have a brand new solar panel system feeding my electricity needs and it has cost me nothing, nowt, not one penny, zilch, de nada, sweet f a!! etc etc. if I move tomorrow I have not lost several grand only to beneift the buyer of my house.

I am happy with the deal?? of course I am. Am I concerned about not making a few extra quid with FIT? Nah, such Scrooge-like concerns are really not an issue. ASG are providing employment for many people - all of whom are contributing to the common good via their taxation - this is a business with a social conscience - more power to them.

To the negativty merchants, why not give the Samaritans a call - you need cheering up!!

ps Bright-ish weather at the moment and output is just under 2.5kw

espresso

simonhornby wrote: »

My supplier SSE is about to raise prices by about 9%. By installing the panels A Shade Greener report (based on historical data) that I am likely to save 37% (could be over 50% if I plan elec useage carefully)...................

Lots of words but no figures, which seems very strange for a number cruncher!

You were asked way back in post #81 what your annual consumption is and have not answered this question.

How much of your total annual consumption is during the possible solar production daytime hours and how much of this can actually be used?

Please post your figures showing how you expect to save between 37% - 50% - it should be easy for you to show
your calculations.

simonhornby

espresso wrote: »

Lots of words but no figures, which seems very strange for a number cruncher!

You were asked way back in post #81 what your annual consumption is and have not answered this question.

How much of your total annual consumption is during the possible solar production daytime hours and how much of this can actually be used?

Please post your figures showing how you expect to save between 37% - 50% - it should be easy for you to show
your calculations.

Nope, not gonna get any figures from me!! Nobody's business but my own. In any case everyones exact numbers will, of course, vary but should be broadly similar for a given application.

Needless to say, if the system cost me nothing and I can use its' full output free of charge - by definition I will make a saving. - I can't believe I've had to explain this!!!

However I will say this, I live with my family in the most common type of house in the country - a 3 bed semi.

Provarication costs money - every daylight hour not used to produce solar generated electricity is money thrown down the drain.