Docs thru post - Don't have Orange Blackberry Torch, never taken out insurance cover!

Jon_01

There is the equivalent of a "stop under dispute process" flag which is applied to accounts (or should be). Once an acc is notified to fraud it's applied.
But what 'may' have happened there is the recovery action may have started before fraud got involved. In most cases it's not a problem as the depts talk to each other and get the actions stopped.

And it has to be said that no system, no matter how well implemented, is completely 100% perfect (if it was there'd be no fraud in the first place). In cases like that the best course of action would be to go to the Exec office, they have a remit over all other sections and can cut through any errors and get it sorted for the customer.

sasparillo

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

Hi sasparillo,

Sorry to hear of the problems you have encountered recently, hopefully this will answer a few questions for you.

Hi Steve,

Nice to meet you virtually.

I note from your profile "We are here to help if you have any questions about your handset, contract, apps, packages, etc". Of course in my case, I have no Orange handset, contract, apps, packages, etc because I have no account with Orange and have been targetted for id fraud.

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

In regards to where the account was taken out, in order for Orange to provide Insurance for a handset it has to be Orange Branded. This means the account was probably either taken out via the website or telesales. To take an agreement out via these channels the fraudster needs customer details e.g. name, address, DOB.....

So for Orange, as regards letting someone have a mobile phone and an account, all the fraudster needs is name, address and DOB? I know the name, address and date of birth of a lot of people. Lots of people know my name, address and date of birth. It's called being friends and having birthdays.

What about the bank accounts - the Orange Care is said to be £6 a month and the phone account £35 a month? It's hardly a duty of care by Orange in verifying that the person is who s/he says s/he is solely by taking name, address and date of birth as evidence, is it?

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

This means that someone has somehow obtained your personal details and used them to open an account, more often than not we find these fraudsters take out accounts on other networks at the same time not just ours so may be worth keeping an eye out on your post.

What exactly do you mean by "personal details"? Are you seriously saying if somebody has someone's name, address and date of birth that's enough for an account with Orange? That's something Orange doesn't put in its ads!

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

Unfortunately, some of these fraud accounts are not picked up on and letters etc sent to the addresses on them are discarded by the recipient as Junk. As a result the accounts remain active and we from our side of things can only assume the account is legitimate which is when the Collections process is started. Once these accounts are brought to our attention they are investigated and closed by the Fraud Team.

Indeed the Fraud Team at Orange and the Police (Orange does report the frauds to the Police, doesn't it?) must be overwhelmed by victims of id fraud contacting them if all that is needed is for the fraudster to fill in an online form or ring up (maybe on a previously ill-gotten Orange phone?) with name, address and date of birth. No bank accounts, no other verifications needed?!

And if this is so, how the hell does Orange the company get any insurance itself?!

BTW who is the man or woman in charge of the Fraud Team?

CHECKS

I went through the online form and found it asks for

1) Address for the last three years (obviously not enough if the id fraud victim has lived in their home for more than three years)

2) I quote "We'll need your bank account details to set up a monthly direct debit payment and your credit or debit card details to make a one-off payment for your phone. The card holder's name and address must be the same as the purchaser's"

When I phoned up "Sam" of Customer Services told me that there were no bank or credit card details noted on the fraudulent account.

I shred all financial documents which I don't keep. So the only other alternative, if Orange has received my bank/building society or credit card details, is fraud on the part of bank/building society or credit card company employees, whether in call centres, or local branches or other offices of these corporations or employees of other companies to whom I have given my details.

It's true that people get a lot of junk mail and may well throw out such literature sent to them through the post as junk.

The onus is on Orange to verify the phone calls and online forms it gets. It's called running a business.

The address for the Fraud Team is currently:

Orange Fraud Department
Senhouse Road
Lingfield Way
Darlington
DL1 4YB

Fax: 0870 374 3311

OK Steve, you can tell them to get in touch with me and all others who have reported fraud if it needs more but Orange, if it only accepts name, address and date of birth as proof of identity is certainly negligent. I certainly shouldn't be troubled to spend time and money on writing to a company which only requires a name, address and date of birth to take out an account which right-thinking people (and the Police and insurance companies) would think is wilful negligence! Reading what is said on the internet, there is also a huge question also to be begged about the relationship between the employees of Orange and Northern Debt Recovery and Moorcroft Debt Recovery.

If this internet site is to be believed, Northern Debt Recovery is a limited company with a registered address

Northern Debt Recovery Limited
Registered No: 06956396
65 New Cavendish Street
London
W1G 7LS

Incorporated: 08 Jul 2009

There are also two other "dissolved" companies registered Northern Debt Recovery Limited

Top Floor 5, King St West, Wigan, Lancashire WN1 1LP

http://bizzy.co.uk/uk/03421318/northern-debt-recovery

and Northern Debt Recoveries Limited

http://bizzy.co.uk/uk/01036848/northern-debt-recoveries

Also http://www.moordebt.com/ which states it is Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited and this website https://www.mdrl.co.uk/ and this one http://www.mdrl.net/. See also http://bizzy.co.uk/uk/01703704/moorcroft-debt-recovery

Surely with the number of complaints these set ups, the courts and solicitors as well as trading standards, department of Business, Innovation and Regulatory Reform, Ofcom, Office of Fair Trading (see below) etc are fully aware of the amount of fraud through what appears to be the wilful negligence of Orange (unless of course the fraud starts with bank or building society employees). In the end who exactly then is profitting from these frauds?

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/press_release_attachments/cim-requirements.pd

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

If you have any further questions please contact my colleagues on the pages listed in our profile on here.

Hope this helps,

^Steve_OrangeHelpers

Jon_01

What do you expect the fraud dept to tell you?

An account has been setup in your name at your address, that's it, that's all they will be able to tell you. As you didn't set the account up they can't tell you anything else under the DPA.

As I said somewhere else, fraud isn't part of customer service. They're not sitting there waiting for calls, their running anti fraud systems, and investigating accounts.

If you really want to talk to someone, contact the exec office.

sasparillo

Jon_01 wrote: »

What do you expect the fraud dept to tell you?

An account has been setup in your name at your address, that's it, that's all they will be able to tell you. As you didn't set the account up they can't tell you anything else under the DPA.

As I said somewhere else, fraud isn't part of customer service. They're not sitting there waiting for calls, their running anti fraud systems, and investigating accounts.

If you really want to talk to someone, contact the exec office.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response.

All I need is for Orange to put in writing that my name and address has been used falsely as part of an attempt to defraud Orange and an assurance I shall not be troubled further by Orange.

I also obviously need to know which bank/building society account/credit card details were given to Orange. It's very basic.

I have already contacted the Executive Office and got a standard email back which does not refer to the specific case. I am waiting to hear but this is extremely serious.

Did you really mean to say "fraud isn't a part of customer service"?! We would all hope fraud isn't a part of customer service!

If you are talking about the "Fraud department" (or is it actually anti-Fraud Department, what's the official title and who is in charge?) running anti fraud systems, it doesn't seem very successful. Especially if all it needs is a name and address to set up an account. As I've said earlier, it's amazing that Orange itself manages to get any insurance at all if it runs on that basis.

Plus the involvement and alleged harassment by debt collection agencies such as Northern Debt Recovery Limited and Moorcroft Debt Recovery which, according to the internet postings, maintain they have been officially contracted by Orange is very worrying.

So what I need is an official assurance from Orange and information about the bank/building society account or credit card details so I can make sure the security of my accounts are not in jeopardy.

Jon_01

Hi there,

Right; 'All I need is for Orange to put in writing that my name and address has been used falsely as part of an attempt to defraud Orange and an assurance I shall not be troubled further by Orange.'
that shouldn't be too hard, exce can sort that for you.

'I also obviously need to know which bank/building society account/credit card details were given to Orange. It's very basic.'
Unless it's your cards (which I very much doubt), they won't give you that info. The DPA means they can't.

'Did you really mean to say "fraud isn't a part of customer service"
What I mean is, the fraud dept isn't a part of the customer service side of the business. Its an area of finance (revenue protection) and is there to protect the business from loss. The staff there have no telephone link with CS and the CS staff can only communicate with them via email (that's the way management want it).

'running anti fraud systems, it doesn't seem very successful. Especially if all it needs is for a name and address to set up an account.'
Yup I knew that first bit was coming as I typed last night!! All I can say is a LOT of fraudulent acc's are stopped. You need more than a name and address to setup up an account, and there are checks that go on in the background. Anything 'odd' is flagged and sent to another dept for more checking.
What 'could' have happened is that an acc was open at a third party dealers, some of them have less than perfect checking and take none standard forms of ID.

I can't really comment on the action of Northern Debt Recovery Limited and Moorcroft Debt Recovery. I do know that some people get a bill or a letter like yours and just ignore it and then keep ignoring them as they arrive when one call would resolve the matter.
But that's a whole other issue. . .

sasparillo

Hi Jon,

That was quick!

Jon_01 wrote: »

Hi there,

Right; 'All I need is for Orange to put in writing that my name and address has been used falsely as part of an attempt to defraud Orange and an assurance I shall not be troubled further by Orange.'
that shouldn't be too hard, exce can sort that for you.

Great. It should be automatic in view of what I've found on the internet about people being harassed over supposedly unpaid bills from fraudulent accounts (again begging a question over which bank/building society/credit card details were originally given to Orange).

Jon_01 wrote: »

'I also obviously need to know which bank/building society account/credit card details were given to Orange. It's very basic.'
Unless it's your cards (which I very much doubt), they won't give you that info. The DPA means they can't.

No that's not correct. The account was taken out in my name with my address. I can verify I am who I am. If it were taken out in someone else's name and address, that would fall under Data Protection. But then I wouldn't be in this position! I am definitely allowed to know such details - as is my bank/building society/credit card company if I allow them the details given to me by Orange.

Jon_01 wrote: »

'Did you really mean to say "fraud isn't a part of customer service"
What I mean is, the fraud dept isn't a part of the customer service side of the business. Its an area of finance (revenue protection) and is there to protect the business from loss. The staff there have no telephone link with CS and the CS staff can only communicate with them via email (that's the way management want it).

Revenue Protection is not the same as anti-fraud - revenue protection is exactly what it says it is - protecting revenue not dealing with fraud. They are two very different matters. Maybe this is the problem. Who is responsible for anti-fraud within Orange?

Jon_01 wrote: »

''running anti fraud systems, it doesn't seem very successful. Especially if all it needs is for a name and address to set up an account.'
Yup I knew that first bit was coming as I typed last night!! All I can say is a LOT of fraudulent acc's are stopped. You need more than a name and address to setup up an account, and there are checks that go on in the background. Anything 'odd' is flagged and sent to another dept for more checking.
What 'could' have happened is that an acc was open at a third party dealers, some of them have less than perfect checking and take none standard forms of ID.

I quote from Steve, the Orange rep on moneysavingexpert.com, who posted earlier

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

In regards to where the account was taken out, in order for Orange to provide Insurance for a handset it has to be Orange Branded. This means the account was probably either taken out via the website or telesales. To take an agreement out via these channels the fraudster needs customer details e.g. name, address, DOB.....

Surely in all cases, bank/building society/creditcard company details are needed? In view of the widespread problem Orange has with this, and the fact as Steve has said that to take out insurance, the phone has to be Orange branded, it should have been easy enough to clamp down on the chief culprits as regards wilful negligence and fraud?

Plus, if as Steve suspects it was taken out by telesales or through the web, there must have been bank/building society/credit card details given along with my name and address.

And these must be given to me so that I can check it against my own bank/building society/credit card details.

Orange_Company_Representative wrote: »

I can't really comment on the action of Northern Debt Recovery Limited and Moorcroft Debt Recovery. I do know that some people get a bill or a letter like yours and just ignore it and then keep ignoring them as they arrive when one call would resolve the matter.
But that's a whole other issue. . .

All I can say many may find it interesting to know how NDR Limited and MDR are contracted by Orange. Also again, from what I've read on the internet, it seems NDR Limited (which according to the internet maintains it has been contracted by Orange) etc without seemingly knowing anything about any bank/building society/credit card details go straight for the name and home address? Also if there are court cases initiated by NDR Limited etc, surely the courts, which must also then accept fees from NDR etc when it initiates cases, by now are also fully aware of the widespread fraudulent activity?

But as I've said earlier, maybe Martin or Watchdog or You and Yours or Moneybox or some such programme should investigate if the employees of the police, Department of Business, Innovation and Regulatory Reform, OFT or Ofcom and other publicly funded bodies are not taking on the responsibility, investigating this and ensuring as far as humanly possibly this fraud does not take place.

Jon_01

Hi Again,

'That was quick! '

Slow morning:), I doubt I'll be back today....

'No that's not correct. The account was taken out in my name with my address. I can verify I am who I am. If it were taken out in someone else's name and address, that would fall under Data Protection. But then I wouldn't be in this position! I am definitely allowed to know such details - as is my bank/building society/credit card company if I allow them the details given to me by Orange.'

I'm afraid it is correct. They will not give you bank, cc, debt, info that's not yours. That would be a breach of the DPA. They will confirm that the info isn't yours or isn't connected to your address etc, but that's as far as they'll go. Sorry.

'Revenue Protection is not the same as anti-fraud - revenue protection is exactly what it says it is - protecting revenue not dealing with fraud. They are two very different matters. Maybe this is the problem. Who is responsible for anti-fraud within Orange?'

I'm not sure I agree that revenue protection isn't the same as anti fraud, but that's the division that the fraud dept operates under. The dept is charged with preventing fraud on the network, therefore protecting its revenue. The head of UK fraud has no number that frontline CSR's can use, the exec office may have, but they aren't going to give it out.
As I said, fraud isn't under the remit of CS, its staff are not 'customer facing' (I hate that term, but you know what I mean I'm sure).

'Surely in all cases, bank/building society/creditcard company details are needed?'
Yes they are. But there are ways that fraudsters can 'play the system'. I really can't elaborate for obvious reasons. But that checking is part of what the fraud dept has to do manually when an account flags up.

sasparillo

Jon_01 wrote: »

Hi Again,

'That was quick! '

Slow morning , I doubt I'll be back today....

'No that's not correct. The account was taken out in my name with my address. I can verify I am who I am. If it were taken out in someone else's name and address, that would fall under Data Protection. But then I wouldn't be in this position! I am definitely allowed to know such details - as is my bank/building society/credit card company if I allow them the details given to me by Orange.'

I'm afraid it is correct. They will not give you bank, cc, debt, info that's not yours. That would be a breach of the DPA. They will confirm that the info isn't yours or isn't connected to your address etc, but that's as far as they'll go. Sorry.

No it's not correct. And what's true is that the Orange operator seemed to accept my report of fraud without checking who I was. Nothing in writing to my address.

This is a case of fraud. The account was taken out under my name and address and, if what Steve has said is correct, was done on the phone or through the web, with bank/building society/credit card account details. And it was only when I reported it that the fraud was noted. If money wasn't demanded from innocent individuals, even apparently to the point of threats from debt collection agencies, there would be no problem for the individual. This is two pronged criminal activity. Orange the company is the initial victim but then generates bills and sends out paperwork to individuals and so involves the person whose name and address and maybe more has been used.

And it appears that I am not the only one when I look at the internet. It is the tail wagging the dog to claim after the person whose name and address and maybe bank/building society/credit card details have been used has reported the fraud to make out the DPA applies in a kind of retrospect.

Especially when I could have rung up, asked about my account at first without reporting the fraud and asked for the bank/building society/credit card details.

I can see the problem is that it is Orange that is the victim of the fraud but then in turn puts the squeeze on innocent people whose name and address (and maybe more) has been used.

Of course the next step for Orange is referral to the Police which it must have to do even for insurance purposes and the police would then check and give the details to the person involved.

[QUOTE=Jon_01;44474392'Revenue Protection is not the same as anti-fraud - revenue protection is exactly what it says it is - protecting revenue not dealing with fraud. They are two very different matters. Maybe this is the problem. Who is responsible for anti-fraud within Orange?'

I'm not sure I agree that revenue protection isn't the same as anti fraud, but that's the division that the fraud dept operates under. The dept is charged with preventing fraud on the network, therefore protecting its revenue. [/QUOTE]

Is it actually called the "Fraud Department"? Is that its official name?

Revenue protection is for Orange not revenue protection for the individual whose details have been used. It's not one corporate dealing with another.

Actually I fail to see the point of such elaborate phone frauds.

I agree that a percentage of people especially those not on Orange, may not read the documents properly and discard them as junk mail. The onus remains on Orange before generating paperwork. In any case I think a substantial amount would be picked up and reported. It seems very easy for paperwork to be generated and people bothered.

The whole convoluted stuff pormulgated about fake couriers, "sleepers" at the Post Office intercepting mail etc makes me think there would be so many people involved and wanting a cut it would hardly be worthwhile to do the scam.

What it does do is harass a lot of innocent people in their own homes - from what I've read on the internet even to the point of such people receiving threatening mail from debt collection set ups - however those set ups get the details.

For the targetted individual, it feels more like an unsubstantiated or malicious referral to Social Services with the hoops targetted innocent people have to jump through. The whole Debt Collection Agency matter, if the postings on the internet are to be believed, seems to be extremely suspect as well.

It also begs the question whether the bundling of idebts (whether real debt or from fake applications) of individuals (not businesses) and selling on as if they were sub prime mortgages on the stock exchange is actually correct, even if the practice has grown up. But that is another issue.

Jon_01 wrote: »

The head of UK fraud has no number that frontline CSR's can use, the exec office may have, but they aren't going to give it out.

Is he or she actually called the "head of UK fraud"? What is the official title?

Jon_01 wrote: »

As I said, fraud isn't under the remit of CS, its staff are not 'customer facing' (I hate that term, but you know what I mean I'm sure).

Yes, of course I do. However with the amount of such fraudulent activity, it's amazing that there isn't a 0800 hotline for people to call.

Jon_01 wrote: »

'Surely in all cases, bank/building society/creditcard company details are needed?' Yes they are. But there are ways that fraudsters can 'play the system'. I really can't elaborate for obvious reasons. But that checking is part of what the fraud dept has to do manually when an account flags up.

Well, for many ordinary people without detailed knowledge of such frauds, it would seem most likely to be inside jobs, even manipulation of IT, skewing of statistics, passing on of personal details by dishonest employees from one company to another for perhaps a variety of reasons - it doesn't have to be for one purpose ...

I'm not saying all this to be contrary or simply win an argument.

Official documents shouldn't be sent out before the checks are done. I wouldn't have even known someone tried to use my name and address if the checks had been done beforehand and paperwork not sent out and the mobile phone thread in this forum would never have known what it had missed.

sasparillo

Scroll down to "Twin Trouble For Debt Collectors"

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/article-2008129/TONY-HETHERINGTON--We-need-stand-poster-bullies.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2008101/Our-family-ruined-crime-nephew-did-commit.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Express_East_Anglia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9523000/9523272.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qptc (go to 15 minutes and 53 seconds)

sasparillo

I just happened to see Sky News today ... While this news story posted on the website covers a little of the story, http://!!!!!!!/lock0t the story I saw broadcast actually had much wider scope.

There was an interview with the Information Commissioner Christopher Graham which specifically mentioned rogue employees selling on information, a magistrates' court case concerning a mobile phone company's employees who were getting £70,000 above their own salaries selling on information (some cynics might say with the lack of publicity previously for this case these sort of cases held with lack of publicity might be a nice little earner for the magistrates' court as well ...).

He also mentioned the "sleazier side" of the private investigation industry. Jack Straw was also interviewed in relation to claims' lawyers' firms being tipped off about accidents, however they may happen, but mentioned a nurse in a walk in centre being pressurized by her then partner who worked for a claims' firm. It doesn't take much of a leap of imagination to wonder whether medical/police details, and other details are being passed on to lawyers, estate agents etc etc?

As I mentioned earlier, I wonder whether the mobile companies actually are directly conducting the transfer of details to debt collection agencies or if it is individual employees ... As the Information Commissioner has pointed out the employees who pass on details are breaching the Data Protection Act and it's also a breach of trust with the company. However when the details are spread around the "sleazier side" also kicks in and that surely is a criminal offence of the part of these rogue employees who have passed on the information and the companies, firms and individuals receiving the information? Some might say this goes beyond just receiving letters - what about the strain put on innocent individuals and a domino line of effects: blighted credit records, divorces, illness, suicides, homes left emply ... There may be a lot more nasty things to emerge from the ank and dirty basement of this story ...