Millionaire Challenge

Karmacat

Ouch, Kaya, that sounds horrible I'm still a small time fish on the feedback part of ebay, so I've never got people like that. You have my sympathies, it must take up a huge amount of time and emotional effort.

How else do you cope, other than writing it on here? Ever yell at them when you're on your own? I do that in other contexts, seriously, it can really help.

Kayalana99

I have to admit I did slightly go off the rails earlier, I don't know what came over me I just want to be treated fairly. I did message them a strongly worded message (but to be fair I was very factual about it) that they could of at least contacted me and that the time I had taken answering their 8 messages has outweighed the cost of the item etc...but she just came back with she didn't need a sob story ..which by far it wasn't so I just simply said It wasn't a sob story but I only wanted her to realise that I am a real person and she could of least given me the chance to sort the problem rather then bring down my business.

She was in some mood with me before she even had the item in her hand as her messages were something like 'When will it be dispatched' (Next working day) 'So will it arrive by the Xth?????' (Yes) Then in the morning...I've not had a dispatch e-mail if this isn't out today I want a refund.

All in short of course to the actual conversation.

Ok..I admit I was quite childish but I have calmed down a lot now...I have 11 negatives in total for the past year (including today) so 3 in the past 24 hours is basically a huge amount really.

I don't feel like myself recently..I feel like I am being very negative about life in general and keep having to pick myself up. Plod on I guess. Perhaps it's wedding blues I am not looking forward to it at all...roll on the honey moon.

Black_Dynamite

Hi Kayalana,

Sorry to hear about your troubles, just wanted to say keep your chin up, you get these pain in the backside clients from time to time.

If you've had 3 of your 11 in the last few weeks, surely it'll slow down and you'll be back to dealing with happy, polite customers!

Keep your head up and have a drink this weekend to relax :beer:

I'm in a similar situtation but rather than selling lots of small items it is a web design service I provide. So I deal with a few clients each month rather than dozens. I was hired by an agency (worked with for 12 months now) and they said they need a budget job (friend of the owner etc), simple out of the box site. I quoted $300 based on the original scope, and delivered well within the time frame to a high quality which the agency were happy with. For the last month, I have been bombarded with small changes that are outside of the original scope and simply told, we won't get paid if they aren't done in this budget, which means you won't. I would say i've had around 70 or 80 emails requesting changes.

I've now removed and added an image onto the site 4 times!!

I'm probably $800 down on this job now!! It's not the agencies fault, but the client has refused to pay until everything is done on their little list. Should have been a 10 hour job all in, i'm looking at it being a 40 hour job in total now. If i'd have known this job would turn out like this, i'd have charged around $1200 for it.

I've managed to get an additional $100 for my troubles ...

After this ordeal, i'm ready to throw in the towel. I'm fed up of the customer service side aswell, it takes away from the enjoyment of the work! I'm not going to but this isn't the first client i've dealt with that changes the scope of the project and won't accept additional charges, which means I either do it or i'm out of pocket.

I had to start drawing up a contract outlining the project along with a formal quote and asking for a deposit to stop this from happening but what can you do when they say well you won't get paid if it isn't done. There are hundreds of developers like me ... there aren't many clients who bring me in as much work as this agency.

On to the next project and sorry for the rant

In other news, i'm now 100% debt free and me and my partner have a net worth of around £45k depending on what we can sell our house for, this has increased from £15k in just 3 years so it's going well apart from the odd few clients!

cazmanian_minx

Sympathies Kayalana - I find it goes in waves, you get a little spate of negs/neutrals and then as they start to drop off, people stop leaving them again.

May I suggest http://notalwaysright.com/ for Kayalana and http://clientsfromhell.net/ for Black Dynamite, if you don't already read them??

lessonlearned

Good morning fellow millionaires in waiting.

Just had to drop by and say commiserations to Kay and Black Dynamite. How awful for you both. Sometimes dealing the public can be such a PITA.

Whoever said the customer is always right has a lot to answer for........

Unfortunately they were right, they did hit the nail on the head. The customer is king, they pay your wages and put food on your table.......they hold the money that you want to take from them.:D

As you know I used to work for developers, selling their houses. I adored my job, it was fabulously well paid, but unfortunately I could guarantee that on every single development there would be at least one "purchaser from hell" who would make everyone's life a misery....

It was a downside of the job and I learned to just grit my teeth and think of the money:rotfl:

I would just smile sweetly and mentally thank them for adding to my bank account!!!

One of the reasons I pay my "lady wot sells for me". Is it saves me the hassle of ebay.

Apart from the fact that I'm not very techno savvy and I found it very time consuming for relatively small rewards I found that so many of the purchasers on there are totally unfair and realistic. I give her 30 per cent of the profits after costs and she is very happy with that. She is a sahm so it suits her. I just let her sell wherever she can.
If things don't sell she returns them.

Same reason ive stopped doing antique fairs and car boots. I just can't be bothered with the hassle and aggro any more. Anything of value I will just take direct to a dealer or put up for auction.

I'm getting old and crabby And Ive started to really value my time now. I now pick and choose very carefully who I do business with and who I spend time with. I can't be bothered with people who mess me around or who try to upset me and cause me grief.

Black Dynamite, I think in your case you definitely need to draw up a contract and perhaps take stage payments??? - just like building contractors.

As you may be aware my late husband was an IT contractor and business developer. In his personal life he was very easy going but he took his work very seriously. When it came to his business he was very much a "belt and braces" kind of guy and would not work without a watertight contract in place. He placed a high value on his time and expertise and woe betide the client or any agency who messed with him. He would not accept cut price jobs and always charged slightly higher than current market rates.

One thing he did say and I do agree with him, is you cannot mix business and friendship. However he would do freebies for friends.

If he did IT work or designed a business solution for a friend then he did not charge them because he said it never works out, it just causes friction, misunderstandings and upsets. He used to say it was the easiest way to destroy a friendship.

However, he would accept a "gift" of say tickets to a cricket match or a favour in return.

A lot of the small jobs or business advice was for friends who were one man bands in the building industry, so in return we would get little building jobs done for either free or very low mates rates......;)

Re - budget jobs for friends of the agency owner, or friends of friends etc. they are always problematical and my husband always turned them down.

My husband used to have a saying "the more you charge a person for business advice, the more likely they are to treat that advice with the respect it deserves". It was a slightly jokey way of saying that in the world of business, IT, web design etc you mustnt undersell yourself. If you offer cut price solutions people will not take you seriously and they will think they can mess you around.

He was extremely well regarded by his clients and colleagues and most of them did in fact keep in touch with him and become his friends. If they then wanted further work doing then of course he would do it, but by that time they understood his true worth and value and wouldnt dream of trying to take advantage of him by abusing his friendship.

Hope you don't think I'm preaching but perhaps it gives you food for thought.

Well I'm in full house viewing mode. Ive seen 4 this week and have a further 5 booked for the weekend. Hopefully some progress at last. The broker is on speed dial for when I'm ready to pounce......

Im now ready to step up my game plan to the next level, there is seed capital in the bank, the broker has come up with some deals and I'm ready to go.

When this thread started I never thought I would be in this position just four years down the line, but here I am, debts paid off and with money in the bank.

Keep your peckers up, keep smiling and never lose sight of your goals.

If you hit a set back then just retrench for a while till you regain your strength. If you need to change direction then don't be afraid to alter your course. If one idea fails then try another. If you fall, then pick yourself up.

Don't allow setbacks and awkward customers to derail you.

Don't throw in the towell for the sake of a few losers who have no manners. They won't get far in this life so don't let them drag you down to their level. You are better than they are.

Dont give up on your dreams - stay focussed and keep your eye on the prize.

Remember if it was easy, then everyone would be millionaires.....

But it isn't, it takes work, guts and determination, time and patience.

It's not for cissies.......:rotfl:

Kayalana99

No that was really interesting LL and much appreciated, without realising it I have taken a similar route with friends and family ~ I would never charge them unless at most, cost of what it makes to make the item. Someone in the family has on numerous occasions asked me to do things for them design and printing wise and she has always offered and I had said no, but recently she asked me to do quite a lot of artwork for physical items that I sell and she was trying to force me to take money (considering that these were real items in her hand I guess I can see the difference to her although my time is more valuable to me then the 35p or so item lol) but in the end we did a bit of a swap and she cut my kids hair in exchange...so that was nice

I can't fully understand the frustrations of Web design but hearing from a friend he works as a website manager, I asked him once why he didn't work for himself making websites because he loves it but his answer was purely he doesn't like working with customers, he says if he could have full creative control over what he did for people he would be happy, but people always want this doing or that and as you said BD a £300 job turns into a £1200. I kind of understand myself as he did me a website and whilst I have done a lot of the admin side myself I am still even now contacting him to ask where the button to change this box is...

Also this is going to apply more to me as I become a photographer, so many I see just advertise for £200-300...then you get people pricing at £1000, the difference comes down to the £1000 price tag tend to have a style of shooting that they control. You don't pick a Tog and tell them what to do, you pick a Tog that you like their artistic style and they tell you what they are going to do for you ~ if you don't like it then you find another Tog and after watching many many youtube videos on advice I find the shining star is stick to your principles and your style and eventually the customers will come to you rather then the other way around which I think rings true as if you are looking to spend £1k + you don't respond to adverts(well not everyone anyway!) you go looking for what you want.

I'll have a look at that link when I get chance got a bit more work to do, feeling more positive today TBH I know my problems are a drop in the ocean compared to many but hey sometimes you just need a rant haha :-)

On a plus note, I am going out shooting today at my first proper 'gig' it's free and I basically asked if I could go but it should be an experience for me as a group are basically giving food to the homeless on street so hopefully I can raise awareness for them, I would say myself to as I have a facebook page now but I really am just looking for experience at this moment in time and putting myself out their...I have to admit I am scared my confidence is rock bottom but I think once I've done this hopefully I can start pushing myself into other situations.

There was a Tog advertising for a model photo shoot last night I could of gone to but I was to chicken to go as I am inexperienced and was worried I wouldn't get on with anyone...(4 Togs, 1 model kind of a play shoot) so I am hoping this will open doors for me not just with what I am doing but upping my confidence to get out more.

ETA: Oh I saw a quote earlier that I loved...don't stop trying until your role models are your competition.

Black_Dynamite

Thanks for the advice everyone.

LL, I do have a contract that says exactly what is going to happen, I get it signed and returned. Stage payments wouldn't really work with this client, the agency is US based and they are charged on every payment to me ($15 I think) so they pay a monthly statement, this was one of those quick projects (or should have been!) at a low cost. If I work on a longer project (anything over $1000 / £500) I do insist on either a 50% deposit or stage payments.

I don't take on family / friends jobs, they're always a pain, this one the agency just charged their mate what I billed them which is why they didn't manage their end so tightly to stick to the contract agreed and in the end it was a nightmare. It was a tough one because I could have either stuck with it like I did, or dig my heels in and risk losing a very valuable (and usually reliable customer!). You live and learn

Your husband sounded like a very smart man, I've taken alot of your advice on board and thank you for sharing!

lessonlearned

Good quote Kay.

Glad you are more positive today. And yes you are right about developing your own stYle of photography. Look at the greats, Bresson, Beaton, Lebovich, Bailey, Donovan. Their work will last for generations because their style is so unique and individual....

Stick to your guns and develop the way you want to, not at the beck and call of customers who wouldn't know a good photo if it slapped them in the face and certainly not for £300. I know how much work and effort goes into a project. Ive seen the effort my sister and my son put into their work. And £300 is far too low for your time and effort for a wedding.

A lot of people seem to think you just show up,on the day and point a camera. Ha!! If that's what they want then they should just get a mate to do it for free.

At any rAte the wedding market is pretty saturated and unless you have another form of income then you are going to struggle until you become firmly established.

How about this for an Idea for a fairly regular "bread and butter" income.

As you know we've had two bereavements recently. In both cases we put together film montages of the deceaseds life. We used both stills and moving Images, black and white and colour. All put together with a piece of meaningful music.

On both occasions the people who attended the funerals were both stunned and delighted with the films. So many have said they will do the same if they have to arrange a funeral.

A lot of people are only just becoming aware that you can have a film show at a funeral, so it is an area that has tremendous growth potential, whereAs the wedding market is very competitive. Would you consider This option.

It is not nearly so gloomy as it sounds because nowadays people do not want doom and gloom funerals, they want "A celebration of Life".

My sister has just posted my mums video on her Facebook page. I have not done this with my husbands video because I prefer to keep it private and have just sent copies to friends and family.

Mums video is attracting a lot of attention, even from people who never met her and so many have commented on what a wonderful way it is to celebrate someone's life and what a great memorial.

I think There is a market out there.

Most companies charge around £400 to £500 and they get referrals from Funeral Directors. Crematoriums are geared up now, some have special screens in situ whilst some have large flat screen TVs available.

Just an idea.

Hey ho lunch break over, back to work......

Kayalana99

It's a wonderful idea although I have to say it does lead more towards film making and wouldn't be my cup of tea as I really want to deal with people when it comes down to it more so children. I don't know if I said but the long term plan now is to set up a Monday-Friday studio when kids are in school..I realise it's not that easy because most kids are in school..(ugh) but I am hoping if I can even get 10 customers a month which lets face it is nothing at even £30 a shoot would still be £300 a month it would make it worth it. My plan has a gaping hole of where I set my studio up but I am hoping once we move that problem will solve itself and I can work from home...but we'll see (I suppose their is always location shoots to)

Although that said, a lot of people make good money of just specialising in newborn photography which can be done midweek to. (One website I saw last week was charging £250 for a four hour session...I obviously have a lot to learn because what the hell can you do for four hours is beyond me!! :-) )

But overall I just want to deal with families and children and couples at a stretch although one idea I had recently that won't make me any money as such is doing a lifetime shooting for a couple that are just starting out...so every year I meet them for a free photo shoot and it's like a document of photos of their life (so say one gets a new job you could do it wearing his work gear etc...sort of things to) but also being able to see myself improve year in year out. It's finding a decent couple though as *ideally* you'd not want people to get divorced.

The other problem is it would be very intrusive of their life, I'd want to document things like the house they are living in, perhaps the car anything that makes them 'them'

As for weddings I'm kind of hoping as time goes on and I make a name for myself doing portraits that someone will ask me to do their wedding whether it be a friend or a customer I have dealt with but the problem with weddings is working weekends so I'm actually thinking...hey I want to spend time with kids while their young so roll on 12-15 years I can start breaking into wedding photography properly with a bit of a portfolio of ones I have done here and their.

Gosh you can tell I've thought about this?

It sounds lovely tho LL xx

cazmanian_minx

I paid nearly £1000 for my wedding photos, because I loved the photographer's work. Worth every penny, IMO.