Tories showing their true colours again.

chucky

FTBFun wrote: »

My mother passed the 11-plus to get into grammar school, but her family were very poor so couldn't afford the uniform, and she ended up having to go to secondary modern.

that's exactly what this policy will do.

it's putting potential hurdles in the way of future students and their families of sending children to university due to financial reasons and not due to their ability.

from this thread it's pretty obvious that people believe that if you have ability to you will 100% be attending university. apologies for breaking it to you, it's not and won't be the case...

chewmylegoff

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it was Labour, and pretty fast after the 1997 election, too. I think the Tories commissioned the Dearing Report, but it was writen after the election in May 1997 and brought in soon afterwards by Labour. I could be wrong.

you are right. blair specifically stated about 2 weeks before the election that they had no plans to introduce tuition fees.

then, in 2001 their manifesto said that they would not introduce top up fees and had in fact legislated against them. in 2005, when they did introduce top up fees they said they had not broken their manifesto promise because the new fees were not "top up fees" but "variable fees".

chewmylegoff

chucky wrote: »

from this thread it's pretty obvious that people believe that if you have ability to you will 100% be attending university. apologies for breaking it to you, it's not and won't be the case...

of course it won't be, with debts likely to reach £40k by the end of 3 years, lots of people who meet the academic requirements for admission to university will not be going to university.

to a large extent, that is a good thing, because the academic requirements for admission to university, in general, are very low. if you can scrape some minimum passes at A level, theoretically you have the necessary "ability" to attend university.

chucky

chewmylegoff wrote: »

to a large extent, that is a good thing, because the academic requirements for admission to university, in general, are very low. if you can scrape some minimum passes at A level, theoretically you have the necessary "ability" to attend university.

and be able to pay back £40,000 of fees.

bargain

chewmylegoff

chucky wrote: »

and be able to pay back £40,000 of fees.

bargain

no, you don't need the ability to pay back £40k before you go. you need to be able to pay it back after you leave. thus it is worth it if going to university will increase your earning power allowing you to pay back £40k reasonably quickly.

if it is not going to benefit you, then you shouldn't go. doesn't seem all that bad to me. if i had had £40k of student debt, i reckon i could have paid it off inside 8 years. thus, i would now be free from the debt, and earning well over double what i would probably have earned as a non-graduate. for me it would work.

the place it might leave a gap is in science and engineering degrees. this could easily be resolved by the government providing funding for people achieving certain grades to do these degrees at certain leading institutions.

thus govt funding is targeted at "useful degrees" which may not necessary provide the increased earnings necessary, to ensure the economy has sufficient graduates in these fields, whilst not extending unnecessary funding to kitty chomondley-warner to study law at cambridge, when she will clearly not struggle to pay back £40k by the time she turns 30.

chucky

chewmylegoff wrote: »

no, you don't need the ability to pay back £40k before you go. you need to be able to pay it back after you leave. thus it is worth it if going to university will increase your earning power allowing you to pay back £40k reasonably quickly.

if it is not going to benefit you, then you shouldn't go

as you say unfortunately we have lots of careers out there that aren't there for financial purposes and don't pay that well but are needed, they will struggle to pay back that £40k. a biologist is a perfect example.

what this says to students is get ready to study but be prepared to have to pay it back. without dong the math, wouldn't this make it tough for people to get a mortgage, invest in a pension, save for a deposit etc...

DexterA

chucky wrote: »

it's putting potential hurdles in the way of future students and their families of sending children to university due to financial reasons and not due to their ability.

Many of these hurdles are already there. Universities such as London School Economics and Cass business school have a large intake of foreign students paying a premium for their course.

My view is simple. If the likes of the Gadaffi's are allowed buy a place then Francis, from the UK, should have the same opportunity.

Whether anyone should be able to buy a place is another question. I'm generally against the idea, but I sense an outright ban will drive the practice underground and lead to an increase in places being allocated through 'unconnected' donation.

Capping the percentage of places that can be bought may be effective.

ILW

DexterA wrote: »

Many of these hurdles are already there. Universities such as London School Economics and Cass business school have a large intake of foreign students paying a premium for their course.

My view is simple. If the likes of the Gadaffi's are allowed buy a place then Francis, from the UK, should have the same opportunity.

Whether anyone should be able to buy a place is another topic. I'm generally against the idea, but I sense an outright ban will drive the practice underground and lead to an increase in places being allocated through 'unconnected' donation.

Capping the percentage of places that can be bought may be effective.

Or maybe stricter academic entry criteria, such as anonymous entry examinations.

DexterA

ILW wrote: »

Or maybe stricter academic entry criteria, such as anonymous entry examinations.

Anonymous isn't stricter, it's just more errrr anonymous.

TBH I don't think you'll ever have true anonymity. And I feel interviews are important. There are many professions which require good spoken english.

Sir_Humphrey

Actually, there were Comprehensive schools opened under the Tories in the 1950s. I should know; I went to one of them.

My father (son of factory workers) went to another and is now an academic.

Killer of social mobility my a***.