Using CCTV evidence against Atos....

jetplane

I think the OP is annoyed with the injustice of it all. The nurse is paid to carry out a professional assessment and whether it is a mistake or deliberate the problem is that the report is innacurate and this can have an effect on the total points awarded.

The points are generated by the computer therefore it is crucial that the correct information is entered in the first instance. For example the claimant may have satisfied the test, had the correct info been entered, it could be that innacurate information has generated too few points which has caused benefit to be removed.

Many people here seem to assume that the claimant would have failed anyway and now needs to prove his entitlement. However the onus of proof is on the department who usually rubberstamp the report and follow the result of the medical.

Yes the tribunal will need other evidence to award the points but they always have a duty to weigh up ALL of the evidence and in this instance the department will have none. The OP has a right to feel agrieved and should discredit the report and make a complaint. The power is very much one sided with ATOS.

True enough, I am currently dealing with an overpayment of over £40,000 Housing Benefit from a fraudulent pensioner who lied about who his landlord was when in fact it was 3 of his sons and I would love to go to the papers about it but we won't because he is elderly. Oh no, that doesn't agree with your point does it?

Oooh is it an MP sounds like the sort of thing they do

yappycat

jetplane wrote: »

I think the OP is annoyed with the injustice of it all. The nurse is paid to carry out a professional assessment and whether it is a mistake or deliberate the problem is that the report is innacurate and this can have an effect on the total points awarded.

The points are generated by the computer therefore it is crucial that the correct information is entered in the first instance. For example the claimant may have satisfied the test, had the correct info been entered, it could be that innacurate information has generated too few points which has caused benefit to be removed.

Many people here seem to assume that the claimant would have failed anyway and now needs to prove his entitlement. However the onus of proof is on the department who usually rubberstamp the report and follow the result of the medical.

Yes the tribunal will need other evidence to award the points but they always have a duty to weigh up ALL of the evidence and in this instance the department will have none. The OP has a right to feel agrieved and should discredit the report and make a complaint. The power is very much one sided with ATOS.



Oooh is it an MP sounds like the sort of thing they do

The onus of proof is on the claimant to show that you DO satisfy the LCW criteria and score the required number of points.
The DWP have no need to prove anything regarding whether the assessment was 30 rather than 40 minutes long, in fact it would be futile for them to try seeing as there is evidence to the contrary. ATOS have no need to prove anything, they can say "the person in question typed a '4' when it should have been a '3' - a clerical error which does not, in this case, change the actual scoring of the original assessment based on the LCW criteria." What is the claimant left with then? Still not enough points to win an appeal/tribunal and a heck of a lot of wasted time inbetween.
The OP can prove there was a clear mistake however they cannot prove whether the error was clerical or deliberate, and anyway motivation for such an error would not provide evidence that the claimant is unfit for work or not. The OP has a right to feel aggrieved, yes they do, however the focus of their ire even though it can be justified via concrete evidence does still not constitute a valid avenue of appeal as far as their father's benefit entitlement is concerned.
Posters here are not saying the OP has no right to complain or feel upset, they're saying that spending time at this stage focusing on the whole timing issue is time wasted, it does not make for a robust and solid appeal against an alleged unfair decision. In the report I got back when I appealed last year my gender, date of birth and marital status were incorrect. Did I mention that in my appeal - yes. Would that alone have won me the appeal at tribunal - no. Those glaring errors cast discredit on the report but had no relevance to the DWPs initial decision.
This is what people are trying to help Chinna see, ATOS make mistakes all the time and proving a report was inaccurate isn't going to make the difference he/she thinks it will. By all means OP be aggrieved you are entitled to that, but don't let that aggrievement fudge your chances at appeal.

chinna

yappycat wrote: »

I'm afraid you're totally refusing to take onboard the help people are trying to give you in this thread. The fact that the nurse said 40mins when it was really 30 won't help your appeal as much as you think it will. Imo it's almost a separate issue apart from that it's proof that the ATOS medical and staff ain't 100% accurate (and thats already been proved countless times).
Trying to punish this nurse for something that she can easily explain away as a typo or innocent oversight on her part is not going to change the fact that your father did not pass the assessment. This inaccuracy alone is not going to score the magic 15 points and qualify your father for ESA with LCW. In fact by trying to completely discredit the entire report you're risking putting your father through the whole assessment again.

If I'm missing the point and you're more interested in vilifying this one nurse and proving she's wrong than you are in getting your dad the benefit you say he's entitled to then fair enough. But, any pleasure you get from presenting CCTV footage to prove your point or getting this nurse struck off/sacked will not pay the bills.

I have taken everything on board from this thread. But when people say it was a 10 mins difference when it wasn't thats why I reply back.

chinna

ILW wrote: »

Would the extra 10 mins make any difference to the assesment?

It was Not 10 mins.

chinna

OneHubbyOneSon4Debts wrote: »

omg can't believe this thread, its going ground in circles!

chinna you came here for advice, plenty of peeps have given it to you and yet your still going on about the missing 10 minutes!

Just take some of their advice your offered, we will be here till next year if you carry on the way your going!

Thats the reason its going around in circles. When people say missing 10 minutes. The nurse doubled the duration of the report, Added on 50% more to the duration. 35 mins not 10 mins.

chinna

yappycat wrote: »

The onus of proof is on the claimant to show that you DO satisfy the LCW criteria and score the required number of points.
The DWP have no need to prove anything regarding whether the assessment was 30 rather than 40 minutes long, in fact it would be futile for them to try seeing as there is evidence to the contrary. ATOS have no need to prove anything, they can say "the person in question typed a '4' when it should have been a '3' - a clerical error which does not, in this case, change the actual scoring of the original assessment based on the LCW criteria." What is the claimant left with then? Still not enough points to win an appeal/tribunal and a heck of a lot of wasted time inbetween.
The OP can prove there was a clear mistake however they cannot prove whether the error was clerical or deliberate, and anyway motivation for such an error would not provide evidence that the claimant is unfit for work or not. The OP has a right to feel aggrieved, yes they do, however the focus of their ire even though it can be justified via concrete evidence does still not constitute a valid avenue of appeal as far as their father's benefit entitlement is concerned.
Posters here are not saying the OP has no right to complain or feel upset, they're saying that spending time at this stage focusing on the whole timing issue is time wasted, it does not make for a robust and solid appeal against an alleged unfair decision. In the report I got back when I appealed last year my gender, date of birth and marital status were incorrect. Did I mention that in my appeal - yes. Would that alone have won me the appeal at tribunal - no. Those glaring errors cast discredit on the report but had no relevance to the DWPs initial decision.
This is what people are trying to help Chinna see, ATOS make mistakes all the time and proving a report was inaccurate isn't going to make the difference he/she thinks it will. By all means OP be aggrieved you are entitled to that, but don't let that aggrievement fudge your chances at appeal.

You say that but alot of people are saying that it is a critical error.
I will post back in this thread..how I got on with this. Has you have spent alot of time contributing in this thread and we will know who was right.

Cpt.Scarlet

chinna wrote: »

You say that but alot of people are saying that it is a critical error.
I will post back in this thread..how I got on with this. Has you have spent alot of time contributing in this thread and we will know who was right.

Let's turn this around. What points do you believe your father should have score and for which tests?

chinna

Cpt.Scarlet wrote: »

Let's turn this around. What points do you believe your father should have score and for which tests?

Like I said in the post above. Will post back when I know more. As the thread has gone off track. I asked a question how I should go about complaing and people are trying defend the nurse.

Just a thanks to all the people on here who have given me good advice and the encouragement to complain about the nurse..Will post back what happens. Thanks.

cit_k

yappycat wrote: »

The onus of proof is on the claimant to show that you DO satisfy the LCW criteria and score the required number of points.
The DWP have no need to prove anything regarding whether the assessment was 30 rather than 40 minutes long, in fact it would be futile for them to try seeing as there is evidence to the contrary. ATOS have no need to prove anything, they can say "the person in question typed a '4' when it should have been a '3' - a clerical error which does not, in this case, change the actual scoring of the original assessment based on the LCW criteria." What is the claimant left with then? Still not enough points to win an appeal/tribunal and a heck of a lot of wasted time inbetween.
The OP can prove there was a clear mistake however they cannot prove whether the error was clerical or deliberate, and anyway motivation for such an error would not provide evidence that the claimant is unfit for work or not. The OP has a right to feel aggrieved, yes they do, however the focus of their ire even though it can be justified via concrete evidence does still not constitute a valid avenue of appeal as far as their father's benefit entitlement is concerned.
Posters here are not saying the OP has no right to complain or feel upset, they're saying that spending time at this stage focusing on the whole timing issue is time wasted, it does not make for a robust and solid appeal against an alleged unfair decision. In the report I got back when I appealed last year my gender, date of birth and marital status were incorrect. Did I mention that in my appeal - yes. Would that alone have won me the appeal at tribunal - no. Those glaring errors cast discredit on the report but had no relevance to the DWPs initial decision.
This is what people are trying to help Chinna see, ATOS make mistakes all the time and proving a report was inaccurate isn't going to make the difference he/she thinks it will. By all means OP be aggrieved you are entitled to that, but don't let that aggrievement fudge your chances at appeal.

The typo theory does not hold water.

According to ATOS official documentation, timings of the length of the medical (ie the start and stop time) are automatically entered by lima according to the time various things are done, SO it would have to be not only a typo saying person say for 40 minutes, BUT it would ALSO have to mean the nurse accidently sat for a exact 10 minutes waiting to complete the exam after she had actually finnished it.

And the original post said 'in the chair etc' which indicates more than one false time statement other than chair and end time was in the report.

What is the chances of accidently delaying the end time by 10 minutes, AND accidently entering 4 instead of 3 for the time period and then accidently entering at least one other incorrect time due to another typo? And all of those typos and delays making perfect sense?

I bet the nurse did not offer to show the claimaint a copy of the medical report before it was sent to the decision maker either (again worthy of a complaint to the NMWC) as they are meant to (no assessor ever does).

Obviously Im only going by what is described in the posters post, my only concern is how exactly were the time periods phrased, as assessors are trained to mislead on purpose - ie they make it seem on the report like someone can sit for X amount of time, but they are trained to make sure they dont technically actually say they can sit for X amount of time - unless they can back that up with direct observation of them doing it/evidence that they can which is indisputable.

They are trained to mislead, so that legally they never actually said X time - just they think X time is possible....

Its all in the wording.

If it is written as a statement of fact that the person CAN sit for X time, then not only is the time seemingly incorrect, it shows the assessor was not even following basic rules of training.

Plus - finally, if it was a typo, there is no excuse for it, as the nurse is providing a professional service, a medical report that must be checked for accuracy - and 2 typos at least, and incorrect end times means it is unchecked/badly checked again a serious breach of medical ethics.

cit_k

chinna wrote: »

Like I said in the post above. Will post back when I know more. As the thread has gone off track. I asked a question how I should go about complaing and people are trying defend the nurse.

Just a thanks to all the people on here who have given me good advice and the encouragement to complain about the nurse..Will post back what happens. Thanks.

personally, I would complain to ATOS and not tell them about the cctv footage yet.

Just tell ATOS the timings are incorrect and explain how long they were.

This will mean the nurse is contacted and given a chance to say her side, if she says oh yeah I was interrupted for 10 minutes, and comes up with some reasons for 'typos' that are believable then fine - but its almost certain atos will just reply that the nurse is a professional, and did not make a mistake and they believe the word of the professional over the claimaint.

At that point, take the evidence to the NMWC and also back to ATOS, because at this point, you have proof not only were lies told on the original report, but during the ATOS investigation, and that should be enough to get her struck of, or it should be.

ATOS assessors and ATOS are used to lying, use it against them.

And if you win, contact the national media.