What is the logic of proposed per mile road use charging?

Murphy_The_Cat

droopsnout wrote:

@ Murphy_The_Cat

You can't discuss with someone who refuses to see the obvious!

I think you summed it up in your question, "Why not let the people / market decide for themselves?"

We/They have. We screwed up. It's a mess.

Your dismissal of people who work things out in their heads before putting their great big size 12s in it is also very revealing. Perhaps if our commercial leaders put more thought into their activities before trampling all over the rest of the world, our problems would be less severe.

But, as I said, I don't feel that you accept basic facts, so there is little point in continuing the debate with you. I hope that the goods produced by the people of the Lake District continue to be transported around the world without too many delays. If they do, it won't be because of the leadership that you have shown here. Perhaps you just enjoy winding us up here and are more logical in the workplace.

Wow, I'm impressed, you've learn't how to link to someones profile

My dismissal of the likes of LDNPA is valid, I supply you with some links about their activities if you like.
Likewise, the reopen the Canal group are so unrealistic in their aims as to be laughable - but still they attract generoud funding for their pet project (little features such as the M6 repeatedly crossing the canal with a few feet of clearence, bridges that are no longer water tight and vast swathes of canal that have become factories, gardens, roads and allotments seems to have been missed by them.
So yes, these people truly are deserving of scorn.

regarding the distribution of the products of The Lake District, absolutely nothing to do with the leadership that I've shown here - as i said previously, i expend my energies where I can actually do some good - like in my own business. I leave the squandering of billions of pounds on pie in the sky schemes to others - they don't need any help from the likes of me, their ability to waste billions of pounds is clear for anyone to see.

As for winding you up ! Don't take yourself so seriously. T'internet forums are where people come to discuss differing views and disagree with each other without falling out.
You don't agree with what I've posted and I think that you are talking out of your bum, but I won't fall out with you about it. I might feel sorry for you, but I'd still happily talk to you about this (or any other subject).

MTC

Murphy_The_Cat

magyar wrote:

Actually I share Murphy's views on public freedom;

Reduce the cost of public transport lower than the equivalent car journey and people use it more. It just boils down to statistics.

Magyar

I recently had to go on a 4 day trip to Torquay with my family on a works trip. Rather than taking my huge, luxurious, powerful and ever so comfortable car for the trip, I had a go at pricing the trip by rail.

Not including the taxi to/from and to/from the stations at either end & taxi fares whilst I was down there, the train fare came to over £300, with the journey taking 10 hours in 1 direction with 3 changes and the journey back taking more than 1 day because I wanted to travel on a Sunday. Even rechecking the journey again now, its still a 9 hour trip each way.

I drove it in 5 hours at an average of 38 mpg. (or £34 in fuel each way)

Even if they reduced the price of the tickets to a fifth of what they wanted to charge me, it's still a MUCH longer (in time) trip than in my own car.

MTC

p.s. I took my toddler son for a ride out on a 'real train' a couple of months ago from Oxenholme to Carlisle. Going Northbound I had the pleasure of sharing the company of a couple of dozen drunken Scotsman and on the Southbound trip, it was great fun sitting on the floor outside the toilets in the carriage.
It really encouraged me to use public transport - not.

magyar

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

Magyar

I recently had to go on a 4 day trip to Torquay with my family on a works trip. Rather than taking my huge, luxurious, powerful and ever so comfortable car for the trip, I had a go at pricing the trip by rail.

Not including the taxi to/from and to/from the stations at either end & taxi fares whilst I was down there, the train fare came to over £300, with the journey taking 10 hours in 1 direction with 3 changes and the journey back taking more than 1 day because I wanted to travel on a Sunday. Even rechecking the journey again now, its still a 9 hour trip each way.

I drove it in 5 hours at an average of 38 mpg. (or £34 in fuel each way)

Even if they reduced the price of the tickets to a fifth of what they wanted to charge me, it's still a MUCH longer (in time) trip than in my own car.

MTC

p.s. I took my toddler son for a ride out on a 'real train' a couple of months ago from Oxenholme to Carlisle. Going Northbound I had the pleasure of sharing the company of a couple of dozen drunken Scotsman and on the Southbound trip, it was great fun sitting on the floor outside the toilets in the carriage.
It really encouraged me to use public transport - not.

Well, I quite agree on both counts. In all honesty I don't think we'll ever get a situation when it's the best mode of transport for a family going on holiday; as you say you want the car when you get there and it'll take ages.

But with the exception of holiday traffic (which you'll never really avoid) the vast majority of congestion is caused by (a) commuting and (b) school runs. In both cases, there are ways in which can reduce them. (Heaven forbid kids should walk to school...)

Murphy_The_Cat

magyar wrote:

Well, I quite agree on both counts. In all honesty I don't think we'll ever get a situation when it's the best mode of transport for a family going on holiday; as you say you want the car when you get there and it'll take ages.

But with the exception of holiday traffic (which you'll never really avoid) the vast majority of congestion is caused by (a) commuting and (b) school runs. In both cases, there are ways in which can reduce them. (Heaven forbid kids should walk to school...)

Or follow the American system of Yellow school buses and staggered school opening times. It certainly works in the US.

MTC

droopsnout

AMO wrote:

then maybe I am missing the point.

Perhaps. See below.

AMO wrote:

However, regardless of the method, information will be gathered.

This alone makes my flesh crawl!

AMO wrote:

Its a fact of life.

It doesn't have to be.

AMO wrote:

In what way is my post naive

Because it shows that you think that all this information could never be gathered in one place and used for non-benevolent purposes. Governments MUST show a need for the info, but totalitarian ones don't. We have no guarantee that the UK will not one day be ruled by such a government. I know it is unlikely, but then so are lots of other things that happen in life. I prefer to err on the side of caution.

AMO wrote:

This quest for freedom is worrying about a problem that does not exist.

You are wrong, I think. If you do not jealously protect your freedom, it WILL be taken away some day.

AMO wrote:

Do you walk about with only cash because you're afraid of organisations monitoring your activities via credit/debit card? Yes, the system can be abused, but that is not the intent.

No, of course not. I barely have a choice these days! Again, you come back to intent. There may be no ill intent now, but in 'n' years' time?

AMO wrote:

not supporting the government in things such as Id cards just results in ineffectiveness of policing.

There is no evidence to indicate that policing will be any better after ID cards are introduced. I live in a country where every citizen has to carry an ID card. There are still crimes. There are still plenty of illegal immigrants around without proof of identity. There is still the odd terrorist incident. What makes you think that it would be any different in the UK?

AMO wrote:

Store owners cannot ask for an Id card to see if a kid is underage when purchasing alcohol.

I believe they can, and such forms of ID are available to young people.

AMO wrote:

People stopped by the police cannot be verified and can give the name Luke Skywalker and the police have absolutely no way of verifying otherwise.

OK. Why have half measures like ID Cards? Just take everybody's DNA at birth, and we'll know who everybody is. Not only that, but our lovely cuddly, ever-so-helpful governments (you know, like the ones run by Mugabe or Milosevic, or even maybe Mr Putin, given recent events) will know where we've been, who we were with at the time, how long for, how we travelled there, etc., etc. This doesn't upset you, of course, because you are not a criminal.

UNTIL they say that you are, that is.

AMO wrote:

Where other countries use Id cards to help, the U.K. goes to extreme to view such things as a violation of human rights and privacy

What things? ID Cards? Or police questioning of someone claiming to be Luke Skywalker? I think the false Skywalker would find himself in the cells for a night.

AMO wrote:

serving none other than to help criminal activity because its one more tool that the people of the U.K. are taking away from the police to help.

Hang on, is there the slight suggestion here that I may wish to aid criminal activity?

No-one is taking anything away from the police, or have I missed something?

AMO wrote:

At the moment, the police use mobile phone tracking to solve crimes and prove criminals locations when using the mobile phone. Loads of people feel violated that this tool is at the disposal of the police and would rather it wasn't and have the criminals run circles around the police just because they've watched the Truman Show or Enemy Of The State and living in paranoia.

Then they are foolish. I haven't seen the films you mention. However, I do feel that the police should NOT be allowed automatically to use mobile phone tracking to routinely track people they may consider to be criminals. (In other words, they should have to obtain a warrant from a judge, or similar). Do you not see that your argument could be applied to emails, phone calls, letters, etc? When do you consider that your freedom and privacy are being withdrawn?

AMO wrote:

Monitoring of vehicle use whilst adding the value of allowing the police have information available for when vehicles are possibly stolen is no bad thing. Only those with criminal intent think otherwise.

Aha! We have got there! You ARE saying that I am a criminal now!

No, I can CHOOSE to install a tracking device if I want to, so that the police can trace my vehicle IF I ASK THEM to, following a theft, for instance.

It seems that for road tolls, if an electronic device HAS to be fitted to my car, my choice is removed. They will know every road toll I've been through. Has anyone proposed how long records may be kept for, by the way, before being destroyed?

AMO wrote:

Freedom has got nothing to do with it.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. I don't know your age, but if you have a surviving relative from the last war, ask if s/he fought the war in order to be spied on by governments. That would be an abuse of the freedom they fought for, an abuse of the power which Hitler would have imposed on the Brits, had he succeeded.

AMO wrote:

Everyone on MSE uses some kind of cheque/debit/credit card which leaves an audit trail and regardless of their view on human rights and freedoms, just mention convinience and all that is dropped.

True. How sad it is that we are prepared to let a little more "convenience" eat away at our liberty.

But how far are we prepared to let things go? Again, when we pay, we CHOOSE the means of payment. And it is our banks who can follow us round if they wish. Not a government. If, at some time in the future, I am worried that an over-inquisitive government would track me by the use of my bank card, then I am free to use some other means, such as cash. Not the case with a tracking device imposed by government.

AMO wrote:

It works well in other countries and applies a fair set of rules across the board and makes sure that vehicles on the continent pay equally fairly for our roads.

I think you have crossed wires here. Again, I live in a country with electronic tags for the purpose of motorway tolls. But I can CHOOSE whether to have one on MY car. If I thought a nasty government was in power, who just might want to keep closer eyes on me than I would like, I am free to remove the electronic tag. I don't think that would be the case if you wanted to travel on ordinary trunk roads under these new UK proposals. You are effectively obliged to have the device fitted.

I'm not sure what foreign vehicles on UK roads has to do with your argument here, but if you want to charge foreign lorries on entry to the UK, go ahead, so long as you don't mind paying the extra for the goods they are delivering to you. It would be simpler and cheaper to do that than to set up toll booths: merely a question of a sum being collected at the port of arrival. (Presumably, you wouldn't hold it against other countries if they decided to charge UK lorries a tax on entry to their countries, I suppose. Some already do this, don't they? But what if a lorry was travelling from the UK to an Eastern European country? How many taxes for different countries might it have to pay? Are you OK with that?)

AMO wrote:

There is enough crime in the U.K. and injustice because people watch too much TV

What a sad picture you paint of a heroic nation.

AMO wrote:

and get paranoid beyond belief such that the justice and fairness suffers.

Ah. I'm now a paranoid criminal!

Please understand. Every time you pass a law, you restrict freedom. Obviously, some freedoms are worth losing. But just how far are you prepared to let things drift in the name of, say, the fight against terrorism, or the need to control paedophiles? It is a serious question, and everyone will have their own point of equilibrium, if I can put it like that.

My own feelings, and thank God I'm still free to express them, is that I don't want the State to have the possibility of carrying out surveillance on me without restriction. Is that too much to ask?

magyar

Going heartily OT, it's always amusing to see a yellow bus with it's lights on holding up three lanes of traffic.

But yes, good idea. If only because it keeps kids and their MP3 phones off proper buses.

Murphy_The_Cat

magyar wrote:

Going heartily OT, it's always amusing to see a yellow bus with it's lights on holding up three lanes of traffic.

But yes, good idea. If only because it keeps kids and their MP3 phones off proper buses.

Me as well, but in all of my trips to the US, I've NEVER seen anyone not obeying the School Bus 'laws'.

MTC

droopsnout

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

Magyar

I recently had to go on a 4 day trip to Torquay with my family on a works trip. Rather than taking my huge, luxurious, powerful and ever so comfortable car for the trip, I had a go at pricing the trip by rail.

Not including the taxi to/from and to/from the stations at either end & taxi fares whilst I was down there, the train fare came to over £300, with the journey taking 10 hours in 1 direction with 3 changes and the journey back taking more than 1 day because I wanted to travel on a Sunday. Even rechecking the journey again now, its still a 9 hour trip each way.

I drove it in 5 hours at an average of 38 mpg. (or £34 in fuel each way)

Even if they reduced the price of the tickets to a fifth of what they wanted to charge me, it's still a MUCH longer (in time) trip than in my own car.

MTC

p.s. I took my toddler son for a ride out on a 'real train' a couple of months ago from Oxenholme to Carlisle. Going Northbound I had the pleasure of sharing the company of a couple of dozen drunken Scotsman and on the Southbound trip, it was great fun sitting on the floor outside the toilets in the carriage.
It really encouraged me to use public transport - not.

Whilst I'm at odds with almost everything else you've written on here, I agree entirely with all of this.

Not sure what you mean about profiles. I haven't looked at yours as I'm not interested enough to do so. I merely copied and pasted your username out of mere politeness, as getting people's names wrong is impolite. I did wonder why it came out as a link, though, but I've spent far too much time on here today to find out why!

redux

Of course public transport here used to run without the huge subsidies that other countries pour into it. Years ago, when consultants from abroad came here to see how we could run our railways so efficiently and at less cost to the taxpayer, they went away shaking their heads in embarrassed disbelief at the state of things. And since railway privatisation the subsidy by taxpayers has doubled ...

Not-quite tongue-in-cheek time -

It is possible to run a car for from not much over ten pence a mile to well over £1 - a large part of running cost is depreciation.

Buses and trains cost about 20 to 40 pence a mile - so paradoxically maybe the people who drive alone in the most expensive cars have more to save by using public transport, but somehow I think they are the ones who are interested in paying to have the plebs in old cars forced off the roads ...

Motorway tolls in France already cost more than the fuel used ...

Murphy_The_Cat

droopsnout wrote:

Not sure what you mean about profiles. I haven't looked at yours as I'm not interested enough to do so. I merely copied and pasted your username out of mere politeness, as getting people's names wrong is impolite. I did wonder why it came out as a link, though, but I've spent far too much time on here today to find out why!

I suspect that you copied my name from a post - in which case, you have copied the link to my profile. So if someone clicks on my name in that post, it links straight through to my profile.

MTC