What is the logic of proposed per mile road use charging?

magyar

You have a good point on many issues here but you're being very simplistic on some other ones.

1. Nuclear power. Don't want to stray too off-topic here, but we simply need new power generation. We have an ageing fleet of fossil-generation stations and renewables won't account for it all. (And wind generators on people's houses is a dead loss - typically about 10-15% load factor).

2. Freight by rail/canal. Canal is actually still used to take coal to some power stations, but that's about where it's reached it's useful life. There might be some possibilities but it's not realistic in today's world. Rail has more potential, but you're asking for HUGE investment into rail freight terminals, plus logistical nightmares. It also doesn't really work for small local businesses, and they're the ones we should be encouraging.

But where I agree with you is investment in a proper PUBLIC transport system to give people genuine alternatives. Until you have an alternative which cheaper and not significantly inconvenient, then people will choose their cars every time - me included!

Murphy_The_Cat

droopsnout wrote:

As for the argument above about Lake District transport, I am not a local resident and cannot comment in detail. But the problem of congestion does not arise in that area, does it? If it does, then it should be for local government to decide how best to tackle it. In some instances, it may be environmentally less damaging to widen a road and put in a roundabout than to build new railways or canals.

But what's wrong with freight being carried long-distance by rail or canal to freight terminals, where loads are transferred to carbon-free delivery vehicles for local delivery?

I'm a resident of the Lake Districta as well, & for us, there is NO OTHER OPTION than to use our own cars. & as for local government managing things, the all powerful Lake District National Park Authority (AKA the Flat Earth Society) is incapable of organising a coffee morning, so an intergared transport policy is galaxies away from their ability !!

Regarding canals in the Lake District - have you ever visited our part of the world ? It's not exactly canal friendly ??

& the carbon free delivery vehicles must be the biggest white elephant this side of "Massive Jumbos", the Big White Elephant superstore

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there is no such thing, and nor is there likely to be for the forseeable future.
& before anyone suggests the old chestnut of a leccy powered milkfloat, please bear in mind that a leccy float does about 8 mph, for a few hours, whilst carrying 250 kg of goods - it's hardly a Transit / Sprinter / Master that will carry 1.75 tons, at the national speed limit for 24 hours a day, every day.

MTC

Murphy_The_Cat

magyar wrote:

2. Freight by rail/canal. Canal is actually still used to take coal to some power stations, but that's about where it's reached it's useful life.

Is that still the case ? I thought that every coal powered power station in the UK was supplied by MGR (merry go round) trains in one of the most efficient (if not THE most effiecient) methods of bulk transportation in europe.

Which power station still uses canals for coal supply ?

MTC

droopsnout

magyar wrote:

We have an ageing fleet of fossil-generation stations and renewables won't account for it all. (And wind generators on people's houses is a dead loss - typically about 10-15% load factor).

It also doesn't really work for small local businesses, and they're the ones we should be encouraging.

As I'd like to be more aware of these issues, I'd be really grateful if you could provide sources for these conclusions.

Is the wind generator so easily dismissed? Is it as black-and-white as that? If so, is the sale of these devices by mass-marketers like B&Q just another money-making scheme?

[Sorry - this is off-topic, though obviously, from the pollution point of view, the issues are related.]

saintjanet

As far as i am concerned this is simply a money making exercise by the government.

If some of the figures are to be believed,£1.30 per mile, has been mentioned at peak times,it would cost me over £50 per day to go to work!!!There is no public transport that i could use short of spending about five hours a day travelling,and even so it is not reliable.

I dont know if figures like this are anywhere near being correct but i suspect that very few people will be better off if this system is introduced.

droopsnout

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

I'm a resident of the Lake Districta as well, & for us, there is NO OTHER OPTION than to use our own cars.

I agree. I have not suggested otherwise.

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

& as for local government managing things, the all powerful Lake District National Park Authority (AKA the Flat Earth Society) is incapable of organising a coffee morning, so an intergared transport policy is galaxies away from their ability !!

As I don't live there, I can't comment. However, perhaps as a believer in democracy, you could stand for election to your local representative bodies and allow the community to benefit from your superior knowledge and skills (the ones that enable you to operate successfully as a managing director, as you pointed out in another thread).

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

Regarding canals in the Lake District - have you ever visited our part of the world ? It's not exactly canal friendly ??

Yes, I know it pretty well - or some parts of it, at least. It's a fantastic place whose environment should be protected against the ravages of modern life which have at least in part destroyed other beautiful areas of the UK.

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

& the carbon free delivery vehicles must be the biggest white elephant this side of "Massive Jumbos", the Big White Elephant superstore

---

there is no such thing, and nor is there likely to be for the forseeable future.

I thought there were significant developments on the hydrogen fuel side (i.e. using water as a fuel).

I agree that sometimes my ideas may be simplistic, but I'm anxious to learn. I prefer that to bombast and smugness.

rjm2k1

reehsetin wrote:

ive never understood that arguement, even when they put up the train fares at peak time
people HAVE to go to work at that time, there is no choice, no one likes going in rush hour, grr they have no choice, what do they expect people to do? leave before peak time and come back after peak?

I went on holiday to spain a couple of years ago and couldn't understand why the small road which ran past where we were staying was so busy and yet there was a brand new motorway nat far away that was barely used. I found out it was because of the charges they had to pay to use the motorway, nobody used it.

This and a lot of other government schemes like id cards are down to a couple of things in my oppinion

1. Get more money in
2. The government is hypnotised by technology companies who put together fantastic business cases for the wares that they sell, the government falls for it.

Murphy_The_Cat

droopsnout wrote:

As I don't live there, I can't comment. However, perhaps as a believer in democracy, you could stand for election to your local representative bodies and allow the community to benefit from your superior knowledge and skills (the ones that enable you to operate successfully as a managing director, as you pointed out in another thread).

The Lake District National Park Authority (AKA the Flat Earth Society) isn't an elected council - it's a self serving beauracratic quango. Besides which, I concentrate my energies where I can do some good, not in a do nothing talking shop.


Yes, I know it pretty well - or some parts of it, at least. It's a fantastic place whose environment should be protected against the ravages of modern life which have at least in part destroyed other beautiful areas of the UK.
You're right, it is a beautiful palce to live and work in, & every day I'm grateful to be doing both - but it's still the most canal unfriendly place I can think of !


I thought there were significant developments on the hydrogen fuel side (i.e. using water as a fuel).
They probably are, but it's many, many, years away from providing a credible delivery vehicle

I agree that sometimes my ideas may be simplistic, but I'm anxious to learn. I prefer that to bombast and smugness.
Whereas I prefer reality to theory

MTC

magyar

droopsnout wrote:

As I'd like to be more aware of these issues, I'd be really grateful if you could provide sources for these conclusions.

Is the wind generator so easily dismissed? Is it as black-and-white as that? If so, is the sale of these devices by mass-marketers like B&Q just another money-making scheme?

[Sorry - this is off-topic, though obviously, from the pollution point of view, the issues are related.]

Well, on the "we need nuclear power" issue, your best bet would be the DTI Energy Review. There's no real doubt that we need additional security of supply; whether it comes from nuclear, importing more gas (i.e. Russian Roulette) or building new fossil plants. The truth is likely to be a mix of all of them.

As to my source for the rest, well I work in Renewables so I do know about wind turbines. Any wind turbine is optimised to work at a particular wind speed; in the case of the Windsave turbine B&Q are selling, it's about 9m/s. Since you never get this sort of wind all the time, a 1kW turbine (like this) will only generate a fraction.

Now, this is the same for all wind turbines, but typically this factor will be about 25-35%, depending on average windspeeds. The B&Q model will typically achieve even less than this. So in reality, the Windsave will be generating about 150-200 Wh per hour. This means your payback period will be >15 years (i.e. longer than the expected lifespan of the machine)

One day, microgeneration may be the way to go. But my worry is that the one sold by B&Q will be a flop, and be very bad for the industry as a whole. We have enough problems with peoples' misconceptions about wind power as it is!

magyar

Murphy_The_Cat wrote:

Is that still the case ? I thought that every coal powered power station in the UK was supplied by MGR (merry go round) trains in one of the most efficient (if not THE most effiecient) methods of bulk transportation in europe.

Which power station still uses canals for coal supply ?

MTC

Sadly, not in this country any more; although still used in Germany. Several studies were done a few years ago to see about reusing canals for this; it showed that it was not economically feasible without huge infrastructure investment.

I'm not convinced canals are realistic in today's world.