Q about selling house and care home fees or care in the home

TomsMom

Briefly the situation is that mother (87) is in hospital after a recent fall, following a long spell in hospital a year ago. I live in Wales, she is in Birmingham and I can't get to see her in the foreseeable future due to personal circumstances.

My brother lives near her, in his own little family bubble where mother has to fit in when he has the time/inclination. Unfortunately the "worry" of anything going wrong with mother falls on him as I can't get there and he's "fed up" of it. I can't do anything about that at the moment except listen to him whinge.

He gives me very little information and because of his involvement during her last illness he has decided that this time he will not lead from the front, will not ask any questions and will just sit back and wait for "them" to tell him what's going on.

I have phoned the hospital this morning to be told she is medically ready for discharge but is awaiting assessment by Occupational Therapy to see if she can go back to live on her own. I asked about tests she's had during the week but was told they cannot discuss anything medical with me over the phone, despite me being the daughter.

Brother was told earlier in the week she now needs residential care as she would be a danger to herself living alone.

Brother says her house will now have to be sold "at a knockdown price" to pay the care home fees.

Now, I have no problem with the house being sold to pay the fees, mother needs care which I am unable to provide (she refused to move and live near us a few years ago) and which brother is not willing to.

My question is: does the house have to be sold quickly in order to pay the fees, or can it go on the open market as normal and await a buyer? Would a care home be willing to wait for fees while a sale takes place or would they insist on being paid?

I'm wondering if he's talking about selling to one of these companies who buy your property at much less than market value, maybe a knee-jerk reaction as he's keen to rid himself of the burden of mother (not that he wishes her dead, just doesn't want the problem).

Also, does England (Birmingham in particular) not do care in the home any more? Where I live in Wales the local council provide a care service for elderly people and I didn't realise that it was not available everywhere.

Thanks for any help/advice anyone might be able to share.

Newly_retired

Wiltshire certainly does care in the home as my MIL has carers in 4 times a day, paid for by social services as she has very low income.

pollypenny

I'm pretty sure you can sell the house n the open market, as in some circumstances, the council will wait and put a charge on the house to be met after death.

Sorry about your mother. It's very hard to deal with aged parents, especially from a distance.

margaretclare

Most councils have moved towards the idea of care in your own home as a principle - it's what most people say they prefer. However, actually getting it may depend on the level of dependency and input needed. I know nothing at all about Birmingham, but how about having a look at Birmingham's website? You should be able to get at the part of Birmingham (it's a big place) where Mum lives. Where I live, for instance, Essex County Council provides care in the home only to those whose needs are assessed as 'substantial'. That means, they can't get up on their own, can't bathe, dress, need help with meals and all the normal 'activities of daily living'. This is why she's having OT assessment.

TomsMom

margaretclare wrote: »

Most councils have moved towards the idea of care in your own home as a principle - it's what most people say they prefer. However, actually getting it may depend on the level of dependency and input needed. I know nothing at all about Birmingham, but how about having a look at Birmingham's website? You should be able to get at the part of Birmingham (it's a big place) where Mum lives. Where I live, for instance, Essex County Council provides care in the home only to those whose needs are assessed as 'substantial'. That means, they can't get up on their own, can't bathe, dress, need help with meals and all the normal 'activities of daily living'. This is why she's having OT assessment.

Thanks everyone.

Margaretclare Since posting originally I have been on the Council's website, it is in fact Solihull not Birmingham although the hospital is part of the Heart of England Trust which has hospitals in Birmingham/Solihull/Sutton Coldfield. I found the section on Home Care and they have a priority list with four groups. it looks like, as you say, that help is available for those with the more substantial needs.

She can get up/get to bed, wash and dress herself, see to her own toilet needs etc. So, as she is at the moment, she would not appear to come into any of the groups.

She is stubborn and her own worst enemy, wont use her walking sticks, has refused one of those personal alarms (which would have been perfect in this situation as she fell in the garage and had to get herself into the house to use the phone). Not eating properly was part of her original problem a year ago yet she refuses delivered ready meals like Wiltshire Foods or even bought ones from somewhere like M&S. My brother will not be assertive over this and leaves her to it. When I asked what she is eating now he replied "I don't know".

I can understand how frustrating it is when he's dealing with a stubborn woman who says "I'm willing to take the consequences of my actions" but he says it is impinging on his life.

If I lived close I would do her washing - the fall was when she was in the garage where her washing machine is - and I would be round there most days to ensure she had a proper meal but this is something that he wont do.

Oh well, we'll wait and see what the OT assessment says and hopefully my brother will ring and let me know. At the moment I'm chasing him for news despite his promises to call and when I ask "Any news" I generally get a "No" and "I'm fed up with it all".

Families - what are they like!

Mrs_Money

Don't worry about having to rush to sell your mum's home. The Local Authority may want to insist you put it on the market if she goes into a care home, but no-one can insist you sell it at a knock-down price. We are going through something similar at the mo and the housing market is just tumbling - just been advised by the estate agent to reduce the porperty by £25k :eek:.
If the property in question just does not sell, I think the LA put a charge on it and then have to wait until it eventually sells. I really don't know how long they would wait - perhaps someone on here knows!
At any rate there's no immediate rush - our LA has already been waiting a year for MIL's property to sell and we haven't had any complaints yet.

Cranny44

Hi

You dont have to sell at any price, and they dont force you to put it on the market. You can ask for deferred payments as long as your mum has under £23250 at the time (this is remaining the same in the next financial year). What this means is that you would probably get a 12 week disregard whereby the property is not included in the first 12 weeks of her permanent stay.

After that you can enter into a deferred payments agreement - basically the council put a charge on the property and your mum accrues a debt (interest free) until such time the property is sold if put up for sale.

The council gets its money at point of sale, depending on your mums income this could be a little or alot accruing and she would also be entitled to the high rate AA after the 12 week disregard period as she would continue to contribute her income during this time.

If the property is not put up for sale then your mum if entitled may not receive all her pension credit and so a bigger debt accures. Also if not sold when your mum passed away the council would bill the estate for the accrued debt - and interest could be charged - ours is after 56 days but councils could vary.

The best place for advice - and i always tell people they should get other advice before signing the deferred payments agreement, is from the Age UK website - they have loads of leaflets on this matter and i often print and send them out due to easy read format.

Also if the home has a 3rd party top up (over and above council agreed rate) then some councils allow this to be added onto the accruing debt after the 12 week period.

Hope this helps

margaretclare

Thanks for your response, TomsMom.

According to what you say - mum can get herself up, toilet, all the basic things, then IMHO her needs would not be considered 'substantial'. As she has been so recalcitrant about doing any of the suggested things that might help her so far, she might even refuse carers coming in! That's not totally unheard of.

DH insists that I carry my mobile phone at all times, everywhere, when stepping outside the door to feed the birds or go down the garden to hang washing. A woman died while out in her back yard during that freeze in December - the same may have happened to her, slipped and fell and couldn't get back in, consequently, she died from hypothermia and the papers were full of 'why didn't somebody DO something before this?' Like what? People can, as you rightly say, be their own worst enemy. We have an example at the moment - DH's cousin is still battling leukaemia and months ago I suggested they contact the Macmillan service for support, help, information, advice.... I got my head nearly bitten off by his wife. DH says that before too long he will speak his mind and that will be the end of a beautiful friendship.

I would find walking sticks quite difficult to use, but there are other things - the wheelie type of things you often see about? There's a whole range of different meals that can be delivered, take your pick.

As mum may not qualify for a council carer and doesn't sound to be a candidate for permanent residential care, how about a private arrangement via a local agency? Would she agree to it?

PS: I'm just a bit mystified about the hospital saying she can't go back home because she'd be a danger to herself, and yet it does sound as if she can do at least the basics? Need to clarify this.

Where I live there used to be an 'intermediate' service - I worked in their office for a while, it came under social services but was a team of people including carers, nurses, OT/physios. They would take a patient home and get them to do something normal like make a cup of tea. One woman, after weeks in hospital, had forgotten where her kitchen was in the house she'd lived in for 50 years! So obviously, she couldn't be left there.

Mojisola

If she does get sent out without proper care being put in place - and it does happen - the Red Cross do a "Home from Hospital" package for a few weeks which would give you time to get something else organised.

Check that she's receiving all the benefits she's entitled to - Pension, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance?

TomsMom

Sorry to snip you Margaretclare

margaretclare wrote: »

According to what you say - mum can get herself up, toilet, all the basic things, then IMHO her needs would not be considered 'substantial'. As she has been so recalcitrant about doing any of the suggested things that might help her so far, she might even refuse carers coming in! That's not totally unheard of.

Yes, she did that last year. After quite a few weeks in hospital she went to a temporary unit at a care home for the maximum time allowed of 3 weeks. When she went home it was arranged for a carer to visit every afternoon to "cook" an evening meal (microwave) and make her a hot drink, and this arrangement was for three weeks. After one week mother "sacked" this young lady saying she was perfectly capable of looking after herself.

DH insists that I carry my mobile phone at all times, everywhere, when stepping outside the door to feed the birds or go down the garden to hang washing.

That's a good idea. She has a mobile phone but I'm not sure she even charges it up now. I think she got quite confused trying to work it!

People can, as you rightly say, be their own worst enemy. We have an example at the moment - DH's cousin is still battling leukaemia and months ago I suggested they contact the Macmillan service for support, help, information, advice.... I got my head nearly bitten off by his wife. DH says that before too long he will speak his mind and that will be the end of a beautiful friendship.

That's such a shame. Nothing wrong in seeking advice and often this is lacking in hospitals. OH has been battling with an incurable form of lymphoma for 3 years and the hospital never gave us any leaflets or any info of any agencies that might help, it was difficult enough getting an appointment with the social worker on the unit to help with any benefits that might be available.

I would find walking sticks quite difficult to use, but there are other things - the wheelie type of things you often see about?

She was given a walking frame when she came home last year. That is totally ignored along with the walking sticks in the house. She sometimes uses a stick when she goes out but mostly relies on her shopping trolley (the four wheeled type) to help her walk when she goes to the local shops.

There's a whole range of different meals that can be delivered, take your pick.

I looked into it, brother was supposed to have sent for a brochure from one of the firms but it never came and he never chased it up. She would probably leave them in the freezer anyway. To her a meal is a slice of ham, a tomato and some cucumber!

As mum may not qualify for a council carer and doesn't sound to be a candidate for permanent residential care, how about a private arrangement via a local agency? Would she agree to it?

I was going to mention this to my brother when the time comes but I wouldn't be surprised if mother said she doesn't need help or would end up sacking the carer again.

PS: I'm just a bit mystified about the hospital saying she can't go back home because she'd be a danger to herself, and yet it does sound as if she can do at least the basics? Need to clarify this.

She could do the basics before she went into hospital. She's getting confused, repeating herself, accusing nurses and doctors of stealing money out of her bag to buy drinks and having a party! Not sure if she has an infection that is causing this (asked brother but he said he doesn't know, hospital hasn't said and he's not asking!) or whether this is early signs of alzheimers perhaps.

Hopefully her OT assessment will be done Monday or Tuesday and I'll see if my brother rings me, I can chase him mid-week if not. I wish I could do this face to face as I think more can be said when you're there in person as you can gauge the mood, being on the other end of the phone is difficult. In the past if I've asked mother certain questions about how she's getting on/meals etc., it ends up with "I don't want to talk about that any more"!!!!

P.S. Just seen Mojisola's message. Thank you for the information about the Red Cross. She does not get any benefits. On top of her state pension she gets a pension from my late father's employment and that takes her past the limit to qualify for any benefits. She had this checked a while ago, someone went round to her house, can't remember where the lady was from.

She has some savings but probably not up to the £23,000 limit, her main asset is the house she owns.

Also thank you Cranny44 for that very useful information.

Mojisola

TomsMom wrote: »

P.S. Just seen Mojisola's message. Thank you for the information about the Red Cross. She does not get any benefits. On top of her state pension she gets a pension from my late father's employment and that takes her past the limit to qualify for any benefits. She had this checked a while ago, someone went round to her house, can't remember where the lady was from.

She has some savings but probably not up to the £23,000 limit, her main asset is the house she owns.

That wouldn't stop her getting AA which would help to pay for a carer if she'll have one.

Some old people are so resistant to having help that you have to leave them to get on with things until a disaster happens. It's not good but if she won't have help, you can't force it onto her.