Q about selling house and care home fees or care in the home

TomsMom

Mojisola wrote: »

That wouldn't stop her getting AA which would help to pay for a carer if she'll have one.

Thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind and mention it to brother if and when it comes to it.

Some old people are so resistant to having help that you have to leave them to get on with things until a disaster happens. It's not good but if she won't have help, you can't force it onto her.

Yes, she does seem to come into this category. Whatever is suggested to her that she rejects she replies with "I'll take the consequences of my actions" which is what annoys my brother as he is the one the burden falls upon as it's actually him that is affected by the consequences of her actions. I can understand why he is fed up with it but he does seem to suffer from "poor me" syndrome and doesn't consider what anyone else is going through.

When she was ill last year it was touch and go for a while, he suggested that I make the journey. She was suffering an infection and in isolation at the time and because of DH just recovering from a bone marrow transplant with no immune system at the time, it was necessary to find out what the infection was (his consultant's orders) as it would be very dangerous for me to bring any infection back with me and pass on to him. He said he would ask the hospital but he never did. I eventually agreed to go which involved a 4 hour train journey plus a one hour car journey with my daughter as chauffeur. It meant getting to his house around 6pm. I said I would need putting up for the night. He nearly had a fit :eek:, spluttered and choked and when he eventually managed to speak he said he'd have to check with my sister in law but they could possibly come up with something even if it meant staying at mom's house (unoccupied for a couple of months, cold, no provisions in, no transport for me [brother worked and s-i-l doesn't drive]and 20 minute walk from shops and buses). I said "Let me know". He never mentioned it again and against all odds she recovered.

Savvy_Sue

Well, if the house is in Mum's name then selling could become interesting if she's seen as lacking 'capacity' - and if she's starting to become confused, then that could indeed arise! Plus, as long as she HAS capacity, no-one can force her to go into a home, and yes, she will have to live with the consequences of her actions.

But if she does have capacity, can you ask her to have your name put as her next of kin, with your brother, and to give her permission for the hospital to speak to you and answer your questions, as well as speaking to your brother? When Dad was in hospital they had several names down, including Mum's, with a large note to the effect that there was no point at all phoning her as she wouldn't hear a word anyone said! And staff spoke to whichever one of us happened to phone / visit on any given day - we did co-ordinate our efforts so that only one of us did this each day.

You might want to look into Power of Attorney, and if your brother doesn't want to take on the responsibility, and you're not able to, you could point out that the state will appoint someone, which will also have consequences.

I'd start with the AgeUK site, there will be links there with info about PofA and 'capacity'.

Are you able to tell your mother that it's all very well for her to take the consequences of her own actions, but actually, her actions do have consequences for those around her, and her son isn't proving very effective at dealing with them?

TomsMom

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Well, if the house is in Mum's name then selling could become interesting if she's seen as lacking 'capacity' - and if she's starting to become confused, then that could indeed arise! Plus, as long as she HAS capacity, no-one can force her to go into a home, and yes, she will have to live with the consequences of her actions.

But if she does have capacity, can you ask her to have your name put as her next of kin, with your brother, and to give her permission for the hospital to speak to you and answer your questions, as well as speaking to your brother? When Dad was in hospital they had several names down, including Mum's, with a large note to the effect that there was no point at all phoning her as she wouldn't hear a word anyone said! And staff spoke to whichever one of us happened to phone / visit on any given day - we did co-ordinate our efforts so that only one of us did this each day.

You might want to look into Power of Attorney, and if your brother doesn't want to take on the responsibility, and you're not able to, you could point out that the state will appoint someone, which will also have consequences.

I'd start with the AgeUK site, there will be links there with info about PofA and 'capacity'.

Are you able to tell your mother that it's all very well for her to take the consequences of her own actions, but actually, her actions do have consequences for those around her, and her son isn't proving very effective at dealing with them?

Mother arranged Enduring Power of Attorney (I think that's what it's called, will have to look out the paperwork) for both my brother and I a few years ago.

If I can get to speak to her in hospital I will ask for her to give permission for them to speak to me. I did ask to speak to mother this morning but was told it was not possible at the time. I will try again tomorrow and she how she sounds.

Are you able to tell your mother that it's all very well for her to take the consequences of her own actions, but actually, her actions do have consequences for those around her, and her son isn't proving very effective at dealing with them?

Yes, I would be able to say that to her although I wouldn't be able to say anything negative about my brother, she seems to have forgotten how little he has done for her over the years and how much she has said he hasn't had time for her. She used to aske us to travel 3.5 hours on our only day off in the week (we worked 6 days out of 7) to choose carpet, draw up the tapes on curtains, little things like that because she didn't want to ask him because he wouldn't be interested or want to help. However, since she was ill last year and he was there and at the time did certain things when she was unable to (before he got fed up!), naturally the sun now shines out of his rear end and she wont hear a word against him.

Thanks for the link to AgeUK, I will check it out.

Savvy_Sue

I'm afraid that mothers and their sons ... well, hopefully not ALL mothers and their sons, and as I don't have daughters mine should be OK in any case, but let's just say my brothers can do no wrong, and one in particular 'is very good to me', and anything me and my sisters do is never quite good enough!

I'm glad to hear you have joint PofA, although 'Enduring' is the 'old' sort. If Mother has capacity, she may want to consider using the new Lasting ones: she can have one for finance and one for living arrangements, but if she's a stubborn old biddy she might not trust you to let you have the latter kind ...

margaretclare

She had this checked a while ago, someone went round to her house, can't remember where the lady was from.

Probably from the Pensions Service. We had this a year or two back. The then Government was concerned that people weren't applying for their new benefit, pensions credit, were running an advertisement campaign 'Pick it up, it's yours'. Well, DH was written to a few times asking why he hadn't applied for pension credit, they would send someone round - he phoned each time and said 'no need, we've done the sums and know we're not eligible'. Well, eventually they insisted on sending a lady round. We said, well OK. Nice lady arrived, DH handed her a piece of paper where he'd written details of his income (state basic, state SERPS, annuity) and her bottom didn't hit the chair before she pronounced he was right, we weren't eligible (she didn't even ask about my income!!!) She did say that they were doing this because so many older people didn't understand the new benefit and saw it as a 'charity'.

Attendance Allowance is completely different. It is not income-based, not means-tested and not taxable - it is needs-based. Your Mum might well qualify for it. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Disabledpeople/DG_10018710

HTH

TomsMom

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I'm afraid that mothers and their sons ... well, hopefully not ALL mothers and their sons, and as I don't have daughters mine should be OK in any case, but let's just say my brothers can do no wrong, and one in particular 'is very good to me', and anything me and my sisters do is never quite good enough!

I'm glad to hear you have joint PofA, although 'Enduring' is the 'old' sort. If Mother has capacity, she may want to consider using the new Lasting ones: she can have one for finance and one for living arrangements, but if she's a stubborn old biddy she might not trust you to let you have the latter kind ...

I have checked and it is "Enduring" which states that both brother and I will

1) will have general authority to act on her behalf
2) in relation to all her property and affairs

and that "this power shall continue even if she becomes mentally incapable".

I'll look into "Lasting" but I think it may now depend on whether she remains in her confused state or whether she gets back to where she was mentally before this latest fall and hospitalisation. It took her months last year to "recover" mentally and she did still seem to repeat some of what she was saying, forget that she had already told you that and you heard it 3 times in the conversation. That could just be old age, I get forgetful now! She would ask brother to do a little job for her, he'd say he'd do it at the weekend and two days later she'd be back on the phone saying he hadn't done it! I think loneliness may also come into it, time must drag and she doesn't have friends to meet up with or belong to any clubs etc. She just has one nice next door neighbour but they don't pop in for a cuppa etc.

Thanks again for everyone's help and advice, I really appreciate it and I alread have some info to "share" with brother regarding the sale of the house and the care home fees!

We'll see what this week brings.

Biggles

An Enduring Power of Attorney remains valid but you will need to register it with the Office of the Public Guardian if you 'believe that the Donor is becoming or has become mentally incapable of handling their own affairs'.

TomsMom

I've just read the EPofA again and it says "jointly and severally" which I now realise means that either one of us can make a decision without the other. Hopefully brother doesn't realise this or he could insist on doing something I don't agree with!

Biggles wrote: »

An Enduring Power of Attorney remains valid but you will need to register it with the Office of the Public Guardian if you 'believe that the Donor is becoming or has become mentally incapable of handling their own affairs'.

Thank you Biggles, I didn't know that. All useful information I shall keep note of and refer back if necessary.

ukmaggie45

Dear TomsMum, I suggest you look into Continuing Health Care under the NHS. There's a long thread (not as long as the house renovation one LOL) about it. While it may not be applicable now, it may become so in the future, so worth checking up on it.

I do hope that you can sort something out that you feel happy with. I remember how disempowered I felt when dealing with the hospital when my mother was first ill. They are only out to save themselves as much money as possible.

Hugs from Liverpool to you and TomsDad :grouphug: it sounds like you need them.

ukmaggie45

TomsMom wrote: »

I've just read the EPofA again and it says "jointly and severally" which I now realise means that either one of us can make a decision without the other. Hopefully brother doesn't realise this or he could insist on doing something I don't agree with!

My Dad signed an EPofA naming Mum and my OH. Mum always refused (actually I think she was probably early on in the process of dementia by then). I think that you have to let relatives know if you register the EPofA, but maybe my recall is wrong? There's quite a lot of info on EPofAs on the Forums, some folks are finding some banks won't accept them now. If that happens you should know that they are still perfectly legal. OH and I managed to get ours done before the changeover. Cheaper to administer than the new ones.

I'll be thinking of you over the next days/weeks/months and hope that life gets easier for you, you don't need this worry on top of everything else.

After 3 years of counselling I'm getting hard in my old age! OH and myself are still not fully over what my mother put us through in the last months of her life. Do look after yourself - I ended up iller due to trying to sort out Mum's problems, and got no thanks other than to have OH accused of stealing Dad's money and all sorts of other awful stuff. While I now know it was dementia talking, it was very hurtful at the time, and I still grieve about it all.