Shameless labour

Flyboy152

nickmason wrote: »

Almost everyone in the country thinks that unemployment is a lifestyle choice for some, and a dreadful, cancerous hell for others.

The caracaturing of Tories as thinking that this is a binary, black/white issue, helps no one; just as it doesn't help to argue that Labour didn't recognise that there was benefit fraud.

Then they need to stop perpetuating the myth.

abaxas

Flyboy152 wrote: »

Then they need to stop perpetuating the myth.

A myth cannot be a myth if they are in the majority.

nickmason

Flyboy152 wrote: »

And that is the difference between the ideologies of the Tories and the understanding of the Labour party.

Please elaborate. For my part, I don't think the Labour government would have made the cuts, even though they knew they should. It's very, very difficult to do - and I am sad to admit I think they would have bottled it. Look at just some of the evidence;
1) no plans as to what they were going to do
2) spending spiralling out of control
3) "there's no money left"
Now that might be because they'd given up hope of winning the election, and it might be that - had they won - they really would have been pressured by Sir Gus* et al to sort the finances out; but I don't think they would have actually had the balls (weak pun intended) to do what needed to be done.

Gus O'Donnell. Head of the Civil Service. Signs of his memos G.O.D.:D

Flyboy152

nickmason wrote: »

Please elaborate. For my part, I don't think the Labour government would have made the cuts, even though they knew they should. It's very, very difficult to do - and I am sad to admit I think they would have bottled it. Look at just some of the evidence;
1) no plans as to what they were going to do
2) spending spiralling out of control
3) "there's no money left"
Now that might be because they'd given up hope of winning the election, and it might be that - had they won - they really would have been pressured by Sir Gus* et al to sort the finances out; but I don't think they would have actually had the balls (weak pun intended) to do what needed to be done.

Gus O'Donnell. Head of the Civil Service. Signs of his memos G.O.D.:D

Did you miss the whole budget thing in March last year?

nickmason

Flyboy152 wrote: »

Then they need to stop perpetuating the myth.

Sorry, I might not have been clear.

I don't want to use such phrases as "Trust me", followed immediately by "the politicians I know" :eek: - but every politician I know, from left and/or right, takes the view that some are genuinely looking for work and some aren't. Some are happy to be unemployed, some desolate. It's complicated. And every politician I know wants the complexity to be understood and moreover wants to be seen to understand the complexity themselves.

In my experience most Tory voters have a similar understanding, and I'd guess the same can be said of LD and Labour voters. However those people who haven't realised that this is complex tend to sit at extremes of the political spectrum; so yes those few people who get hugely animated that everyone on benefits is on the fiddle tend to be far right; and those that get hugely animated that the existence of such people is a fiendish Tory lie tend to be far left. However loud these people are, doesn't make them representative.

I can't of course vouch for the opinions of people on web forums.

nickmason

Flyboy152 wrote: »

Did you miss the whole budget thing in March last year?

No. Would that be the one where they didn't actually tell anyone where the cuts would be? Leading to the most tedious shadow-boxing during the election?

The point is - the government wasn't prepared to say where the cuts would be. If they had done so, then the pressure from Unions et al would probably have caused them - in my opinion - to fail to carry them out. Look at what's happening now - even Tory MPs are rebelling because the cuts (that they understand need to happen) are unpalatable in their own back yard. As I said, it takes real courage.

abaxas

nickmason wrote: »

Sorry, I might not have been clear.

I don't want to use such phrases as "Trust me", followed immediately by "the politicians I know" :eek: - but every politician I know, from left and/or right, takes the view that some are genuinely looking for work and some aren't. Some are happy to be unemployed, some desolate. It's complicated. And every politician I know wants the complexity to be understood and moreover wants to be seen to understand the complexity themselves.

In my experience most Tory voters have a similar understanding, and I'd guess the same can be said of LD and Labour voters. However those people who haven't realised that this is complex tend to sit at extremes of the political spectrum; so yes those few people who get hugely animated that everyone on benefits is on the fiddle tend to be far right; and those that get hugely animated that the existence of such people is a fiendish Tory lie tend to be far left. However loud these people are, doesn't make them representative.

I can't of course vouch for the opinions of people on web forums.

Please dont take your sources to be politicians.

Do you have any friends who live like that? Only then can you understand the mindset.

I'm happy to judge them on being dole theiving scum. But also they are my friends, they respect me and I respect them, despite a 'career' choice I do not approve of.

The mad thing is, they tend to agree and know that we are mates because we get along.

Wheezy_2

nickmason, kudos for your posts on the big society idea.
I have to admit I'm quite skeptical about the concept and its application in this materialistic "what's in it for me" society, but your posts are very informative.
Maybe you should take Coulson's place.

shortchanged_2

nickmason wrote: »

Please elaborate. For my part, I don't think the Labour government would have made the cuts, even though they knew they should. It's very, very difficult to do - and I am sad to admit I think they would have bottled it. Look at just some of the evidence;
1) no plans as to what they were going to do
2) spending spiralling out of control
3) "there's no money left"
Now that might be because they'd given up hope of winning the election, and it might be that - had they won - they really would have been pressured by Sir Gus* et al to sort the finances out; but I don't think they would have actually had the balls (weak pun intended) to do what needed to be done.

Gus O'Donnell. Head of the Civil Service. Signs of his memos G.O.D.:D

Isn't this what the tories are doing with some of their plans?

Wasn't it Cameron that was saying difficult decisions have to be made and that he was the man to stay strong on the tough decisions.
Yet they have already backed down on certain proposals when the going has got tough.

TheMoneySpider

abaxas wrote: »

Obviously you have never been on that position or had friends who chose this as they career path.

Come back to the real world and stop reading the Guardian.

I don't read the Guardian thank you very much, I am sure there are outliers there always are. There are benefit scroungers and there are non-dom tax avoiders.

You don't just slash country-wide systems people genuinely rely on because you saw an extreme case on Jeremy Kyle. That is how the Tories are behaving....unless a celebrity generates negative publicity in which they slam into reverse.