Other services with unenforceable charges???

monkey_alan

I've been a long-time lurker on this section and have found the advice very useful after receiving an unenforceable piece of toilet paper from Parking Eye back in August. I've also spread the word amongst my friends and family about PPC tickets and have hopefully stopped a few hundred quid going into the pockets of these scam artists.

Recent posts on here got me thinking about other services where the same legal principle can be applied. It's been established that we can stay in a private car park for free, so I don't see why the same can't apply for other services where there's no provision of tangible goods. What about having your windows cleaned, or having your lawn cut by a gardener, for example. Could any begging letters or threats of court be safely ignored? There are many similarities with private parking situations:

A) It might be impossible to get the name of the person who entered into the alleged contract. The window cleaner / gardener could get the house owner's name from the Land Registry but this wouldn't really prove anything and the house owner could refuse to admit that he was the one who entered into the contract, or to say who it was (the burden of proof is on the claimant to show who the contract was with)
There would be no evidence that any contract even existed - no paper, signatures, or anything like that
C) Since they could only claim for their actual losses it would be very hard to prove they had actually lost anything more than a few quid, so not worth chancing their arm in court over it.

Just wanted to moot this idea with the consumer boffins on here. Surely the idea of unenforceable charges can't just be limited to car parks?

peter_the_piper

If you have had a service, parking, cleaning etc then you should always pay, why would you not want to?. If the window cleaner charges and does not do it then don't pay. If the park owner asks for £5.00 day to park then there is no reason not to, if he then says you parked an inch over the line and asks for a further £50.00 then he can get stuffed.

monkey_alan

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I've misunderstood but I thought the consensus on here was not to pay private car parks anything at all, as any charges they make are legally unenforceable. I was reading a thread the other day (sorry can't find it right now) where someone was asking whether it's best to pay for a private car park permit by credit card or by direct debit and the advice was to do neither, i.e. just go and park there and don't pay, and then ignore the chain of letters afterwards.

So unless some form of statute exists, doesn't the same apply to all private contracts where no certain terms can be established, or where the party being asked to pay can merely claim they were not aware of the terms, or can claim they were not necessarily the party who used/commissioned the service unless the claimant can prove otherwise?

(BTW - I wasn't planning on withholding my £6 from my window cleaner next week but just thought it makes an interesting debate!)

trisontana

Apart from a couple of rogue elements on here (you know who you are!) nobody is saying don't pay to park. What they are objecting to is the ludicrous "penalties" demanded by the private parking companies if you infringe their "rules". These charges bear no relation to the actual material loss suffered by the landowner. And that's all they can claim for. Nothing else.

This is because the law of the land says that one private citizen (the PPC) cannot punish another private citizen (the motorist). If they try to impose these inflated charges then that would be considered an unfair penalty.

Stigy

monkey_alan wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I've misunderstood but I thought the consensus on here was not to pay private car parks anything at all, as any charges they make are legally unenforceable. I was reading a thread the other day (sorry can't find it right now) where someone was asking whether it's best to pay for a private car park permit by credit card or by direct debit and the advice was to do neither, i.e. just go and park there and don't pay, and then ignore the chain of letters afterwards.

So unless some form of statute exists, doesn't the same apply to all private contracts where no certain terms can be established, or where the party being asked to pay can merely claim they were not aware of the terms, or can claim they were not necessarily the party who used/commissioned the service unless the claimant can prove otherwise?

(BTW - I wasn't planning on withholding my £6 from my window cleaner next week but just thought it makes an interesting debate!)

I think the general consensus (with the exception of the odd one or two repribates), is that you should always pay the charge for parking on private land, as stipulated by the land owner. However, if you receive a 'ticket' for overstaying, or parking outside a marked bay, you can safely ignore. The same goes if you don't pay at all, and receive a 'ticket', although in my eyes if you don't pay anything in the first place in a P&D car park, you deserve everything you get!

muckybutt

Some of the more hardliners wont pay any private parking firm anything, however myself and others do. I always pay my way in private car aprks as at the end of the day they are offering a service to you the motorist by providing a parking place.

However I like all others will not be forced to pay extortionatly priced unenforceable invoices from these private parking companies for breaking their rules.

david39

If you don't pay your window cleaner, I doubt that he would take you to court - he'd just stop cleaning your windows in the future, and probably spread the word to other cleaners in the district.

trisontana

david39 wrote: »

If you don't pay your window cleaner, I doubt that he would take you to court - he'd just stop cleaning your windows in the future, and probably spread the word to other cleaners in the district.

Or might accidentally drop his ladder through your window!

Stigy

trisontana wrote: »

Or might accidentally drop his ladder through your window!

Indeed, also, remember that he knows where you live and more than likely, where you park your car, too.

System

But for the window cleaner and gardener you are normally approaching them to do the work. You are therefore intimately involved in setting up a contract with them and so liable to pay.

monkey_alan

Thanks for the replies, but I'm still a bit confused! When is the charge legal and when isn't it legal? I assume if it's displayed on a P&D tariff board then it's legally binding, like one run by Euro Car Parks in Manchester which I often use that charges £8 for the whole day. Yet some on here are saying you could still get away with not paying it and they couldn't enforce it? I'm kind of 50/50 as to whether I should pay the £8 next time...!