£1.40 a litre

Kohoutek

RenovationMan wrote: »

Statement: No, no, I think that if people have a job in a certain town and yet live outside that town and commute,then higher fuel prices might convince them to relocate to the town they work in, saving money and time....

Some will decide to continue to commute, even though it doesnt make financial sense, perhaps because they are attached to a particular home or location and some will do the calculations and decide that they will relocate to save transport costs, even if it means that their mortgage is higher. They might feel that a lot of the increase in mortgage is covered by the reduction in transport costs and in the increase in their quality of life. Plus they might prefer to invest their transport money in a property that will gain value long-term than waste it on petrol or train/bus fairs.

The problem with your argument is that it's physically impossible for a large proportion of commuters that live in satellite villages/towns of the city/large town where they work to move there. The surplus housing stock that would require, particularly given fewer people would logically be moving the other way, doesn't exist...

You also forget that rising fuel costs and the new urbanisation you describe will make the value of commuters' semi-rural properties much lower and the value of urban/suburban properties in large towns and cities much higher. In that situation, people would find it financially extremely difficult to make the move you're describing.

RenovationMan

Kohoutek wrote: »

The problem with your argument is that it's physically impossible for a large proportion of commuters that live in satellite villages/towns of the city/large town where they work to move there. The surplus housing stock that would require, particularly given fewer people would logically be moving the other way, doesn't exist...

You also forget that rising fuel costs and the new urbanisation you describe will make the value of commuters' semi-rural properties much lower and the value of urban/suburban properties in large towns and cities much higher. In that situation, people would find it financially extremely difficult to make the move you're describing.

So what your saying is that people should continue to live distant to where they work and the rest of us should pay taxes to subsidise their commute into work, perhaps buying them new cars so that the commute doesnt pollute the country too much?

I cant see your plan working, especially as the tax burden is already high without us having to subsidise other people's petrol. Your plan just isnt workable.

Kohoutek

RenovationMan wrote: »

T
As a reminder this is what I think will happen to society as the price of fuel goes up:

I think that as transports costs increase, we will see a move towards people living closer to where they work , putting their kids in local schools and shopping in local shops.

What is your view? What do you guys think will happen?

How do you propose that will be possible, given that very few families will be moving in the other direction to live further from where they work and given the lack of a massive urban housebuilding programme?

RenovationMan

Kohoutek wrote: »

How do you propose that will be possible, given that very few families will be moving in the other direction to live further from where they work and given the lack of a massive urban housebuilding programme?

How do you propose that we set up the increase in taxation to pay for your commuting tax? Do you add it onto NI or income tax, or increase VAT again?

Given that the country is on its knees already, how will your plan to subsidise the fuel costs of commuters be workable?

Kohoutek

RenovationMan wrote: »

So what your saying is that people should continue to live distant to where they work and the rest of us should pay taxes to subsidise their commute into work, perhaps buying them new cars so that the commute doesnt pollute the country too much?

I cant see your plan working, especially as the tax burden is already high without us having to subsidise other people's petrol. Your plan just isnt workable.

How do you propose that we set up the increase in taxation to pay for your commuting tax? Do you add it onto NI or income tax, or increase VAT again?

Given that the country is on its knees already, how will your plan to subsidise the fuel costs of commuters be workable?

I didn't mention anything remotely resembling what you've posted above. You've just pulled things out of thin air – when did I say that "the rest of us" should subsidise commuters' fuel bills?

I don't disagree with your plan in principle, but it can't work, at least in the short to medium terms, because the housing and infrastructure that would be required for re-urbanisation doesn't exist yet...I think people have to face up to the fact that, for the medium term, there will be great hardship and a much lower standard of living for many people. There is no "plan" that can be implemented in the short or medium term that would solve this problem.

RenovationMan

Kohoutek wrote: »

I didn't mention anything remotely resembling what you've posted above. You've just pulled things out of thin air – when did I say that "the rest of us" should subsidise commuters' fuel bills?.

Now you know how I feel, I havent said anything of the sort that you and the other person has attributed to me.

I simply stated that as fuel prices go up, more people will move closer to work.

I havent said anything about the impact on house prices or the impact on local economies. I havent said anything about moving jobs from cities to villages from the South East to the NW/NE/Scotland/Wales I simply said that more people will move closer to where they work.

Do you disagree with the statement: "That as fuel prices go up, more people will move closer to work"?

Just to really really qualify that statement, it does not say this should be a government initiative, it should not be some sort of forced march from villages to the cities. It simply means that individuals will look at their own finances and make calculated decisions based on the cost in time and money of their commute and as individuals they will decide whether it makes sense to stay put and pay increasing fuel costs or decide to relocate closer to where they work.

My statement is that as fuel prices increase, more individuals will make this calculation and more of them will decide that, for them, as individuals, who are uncompelled by me you or a government, will move closer to where they work.

Phew, its like writing a legal document posting on here. :rotfl:

wotsthat

RenovationMan wrote: »

My statement is that as fuel prices increase, more individuals will make this calculation and more of them will decide that, for them, as individuals, who are uncompelled by me you or a government, will move closer to where they work.

You mean that people would choose to live closer to work like they did for hundreds of years before the advent of cheap and time efficient transport.

No wonder you can't get your point across. That's just crazy talk.

RenovationMan

wotsthat wrote: »

You mean that people would choose to live closer to work like they did for hundreds of years before the advent of cheap and time efficient transport.

No wonder you can't get your point across. That's just crazy talk.

Your right. I'm talking nonsense.

For one loony minute I thought that if fuel prices really start to climb to the point that people's commutes become so expensive that its not cost effective to commute to that job anymore and so they would either get a new job that is closer to where they live or alternatively get new accomodation closer to their job.

I clearly didnt even consider the other alternatives such as stay put and give up the job and go on the dole or endure financial hardship and a lower standard of living in order to fuel my car and drive to a job that is no longer economically viable.

Well, you learn something new every day.

Kohoutek

RenovationMan wrote: »

Do you disagree with the statement: "That as fuel prices go up, more people will move closer to work"?

...

My statement is that as fuel prices increase, more individuals will make this calculation and more of them will decide that, for them, as individuals, who are uncompelled by me you or a government, will move closer to where they work.

All I'm saying is that a process of re-urbanisation (for most people moving closer to work is moving into a town or city) can't happen without a drastic increase in housing stock in major towns and cities. Building those houses and associated infrastructure isn't going to be a quick process. How can you not understand that?

Also, I wasn't implying it would be or should be government directed.

Puddleglum

RenovationMan wrote: »

Your right. I'm talking nonsense.

For one loony minute I thought that if fuel prices really start to climb to the point that people's commutes become so expensive that its not cost effective to commute to that job anymore and so they would either get a new job that is closer to where they live or alternatively get new accomodation closer to their job.

I clearly didnt even consider the other alternatives such as stay put and give up the job and go on the dole or endure financial hardship and a lower standard of living in order to fuel my car and drive to a job that is no longer economically viable.

Well, you learn something new every day.

How about sharing a car with someone else going your way?