TFL Penalty fare on DLR - appealed but no response...

thursdaynext

Hi all - I am hoping a savvy Londoner can help me here!

I got a penalty fare on the DLR nearly 3 weeks ago (thought I had swiped my Oyster card, but apparently it hadn't validated...). I appealed, as it was a genuine mistake & has never happened before. Not holding out much hope but you never know...

Anyway, the penalty is £25 if you pay within 3 weeks, then it goes up to £50. It's nearly 3 weeks & I haven't heard anything back about my appeal.

So, should I pay the £25 & forget about the appeal? If I'm going to have to pay it then I'd rather pay £25 than £50, obviously. There's nothing on the website to say how long the appeal will take, and the only phone number is for an automated phone line, which just tells you how to make an appeal.

I don't want to get the appeal refused after 6 weeks, then be told the fine is £50 cos I didn't pay it sooner!

Stigy

thursdaynext wrote: »

Hi all - I am hoping a savvy Londoner can help me here!

I got a penalty fare on the DLR nearly 3 weeks ago (thought I had swiped my Oyster card, but apparently it hadn't validated...). I appealed, as it was a genuine mistake & has never happened before. Not holding out much hope but you never know...

Anyway, the penalty is £25 if you pay within 3 weeks, then it goes up to £50. It's nearly 3 weeks & I haven't heard anything back about my appeal.

So, should I pay the £25 & forget about the appeal? If I'm going to have to pay it then I'd rather pay £25 than £50, obviously. There's nothing on the website to say how long the appeal will take, and the only phone number is for an automated phone line, which just tells you how to make an appeal.

I don't want to get the appeal refused after 6 weeks, then be told the fine is £50 cos I didn't pay it sooner!

You can pay the penalty fare and still keep the appeal open, which is what I'd suggest. Just because you've paid, doesn't deem an appeal pointless!

Livingthedream

Pay the £25, if your appeal is successful then claim your £25 back, TfL will drag their heels, they always do, but you will get your £25 back in the end. If your appeal is unsuccessful then you've saved yourself £25 by not paying the increased £50 charge.

yorkie2

thursdaynext wrote: »

as it was a genuine mistake & has never happened before.

Penalty fares are actually intended for "genuine mistakes", if they thought it was a deliberate attempt to evade ayment they would NOT issue a penalty fare. Instead, they would prosecute and a criminal record could result if found guilty.

It's a common misconception that a PF is a fine and that you are being accused of fare dodging. It isn't.

A good quote can be found here (I know it's a different company but it's the same thing)

A penalty fare is simply a charge that [we are] allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. ‘

If you get your Penalty Fare cancelled on the basis of 'making a mistake', I will be absolutely totally shocked.

I don't like the Penalty Fares system, and am glad we do not have anything like it here!

geordie_taxi

yorkie2 wrote: »

If you get your Penalty Fare cancelled on the basis of 'making a mistake', I will be absolutely totally shocked.

hmm!!!!! people make mistakes all the time and so do train companys this poster got his penalty fare cancelled for a genuine mistake

so please feel shocked

Stigy

yorkie2 wrote: »

Penalty fares are actually intended for "genuine mistakes", if they thought it was a deliberate attempt to evade ayment they would NOT issue a penalty fare. Instead, they would prosecute and a criminal record could result if found guilty.

It's a common misconception that a PF is a fine and that you are being accused of fare dodging. It isn't.

Exactly!

That's what I tell everyone, however I have seen some staff issue them to even the most persistant fare evaders, and it makes me cringe! The PF is much the same as Penalty Notice for Disorder (PND) and serves to keep ticketing byelaw offences out of court as the PND does with other minor offences. People are often of the misconception also, that the PF scheme is merely a money spinner...I suppose it could be as far as the Government is concerned, but as far as Train companies go, they tend to make pennies from a single PF, and it's probably more profitable to sell a ticket!

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

but as far as Train companies go, they tend to make pennies from a single PF, and it's probably more profitable to sell a ticket!

thats why it always best to fight a penalty fare as the train company have to sum up whether it will cost them more to take you to court

ive done pick ups from the railway station always the same people in the back of the taxi laughing as they had a penalty fare again and not been done for fare dodging

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

thats why it always best to fight a penalty fare as the train company have to sum up whether it will cost them more to take you to court

ive done pick ups from the railway station always the same people in the back of the taxi laughing as they had a penalty fare again and not been done for fare dodging

Alot of it is business type people who chance the fact that they'll get a PF once a week and pay it up-front, thus not having their details taken. Clever fare evasion. Which is why I'd always take their details first, and then decide what method I'm going to use to resolve the situation. If all staff done this, it would be easier to catch the non-stereotypical fare dodger!

If a TOC cancels a PF and choses to go to court, it'll be done using the byelaws in a Magistrate's Court, as opposed to not cancelling the PF and resolving the matter through a County Court as merely an unpaid invoice. This way it's a criminal offence rather than a civil one, and 9 times out of 10, they win the case anyway, so cost shouldn't be a deciding factor.

thursdaynext

Thanks all for the info.

Stigy wrote: »

People are often of the misconception also, that the PF scheme is merely a money spinner...

When it happened, everyone on the carriage joined in criticising the ticket inspector for giving me the ticket - one woman said that TFL make £5m a month from these penalties and that's how they make their money - so definitely that's the perception! At least I got people on public transport in London talking to each other!

I did think that PFs were for fare dodgers, so thanks for enlightening me, I'll no longer think of myself as being labelled as such :A. But I can't help thinking that DLR/TFL do it on purpose to catch people out - on the swipe-in machines there's a small badly-lit window of text, and a beep you often can't hear in a busy DLR station like Canary Wharf, so it can be quite hard to see/hear that your card's validated.

I did eventually find a phone number with an actual person on the end & he tells me they sent a response to me on 27th December. He couldn't tell me what the response was, but he did say there's a couple of weeks grace if you appeal, so I haven't paid and am eagerly waiting to find out what they'll say...

Livingthedream

thursdaynext wrote: »

I did eventually find a phone number with an actual person on the end & he tells me they sent a response to me on 27th December. He couldn't tell me what the response was, but he did say there's a couple of weeks grace if you appeal, so I haven't paid and am eagerly waiting to find out what they'll say...

Typical Christmas and serve weather postal delays, I'm still getting Christmas cards, anyway hopefully you should get a letter in the next few days. If you don't get a letter, phone them back up and ask them to send you another letter and again state to them that you still haven't received the last one, to extend the 'grace period'

Best of Luck with your appeal.

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

Alot of it is business type people who chance the fact that they'll get a PF once a week and pay it up-front, thus not having their details taken. Clever fare evasion. Which is why I'd always take their details first, and then decide what method I'm going to use to resolve the situation. If all staff done this, it would be easier to catch the non-stereotypical fare dodger!

If a TOC cancels a PF and choses to go to court, it'll be done using the byelaws in a Magistrate's Court, as opposed to not cancelling the PF and resolving the matter through a County Court as merely an unpaid invoice. This way it's a criminal offence rather than a civil one, and 9 times out of 10, they win the case anyway, so cost shouldn't be a deciding factor.

apparently they demand that the revenue bloke sells them a single ticket making the excuse that thats the first time they could get one due to ticket vending machine playing up at their station. then they take the penalty fare and laugh. apparently it hard to prove an "intent to avoid payment" or a bylaw offence if you have a valid ticket and excuse. this is what the punters tell me