Dental Work Abroad

Toothsmith

Steve_xx wrote:

What we are objecting to is the sudden steep hikes in the cost of dental provision in this country and it seems that these hikes are largely borne by the fact that dentists have in the main taken their practises private.

I agree 100% with this.

I am sure that once you base your opinions on real facts, rather than made up figures, spin, stereotypes and lies, we would have a lot more in common than you realise.

I would love to debate with you the best way to make dentistry affordable for the population.

The thing that cannot be disputed though is the actual cost, in this country, of providing the service. Neither can the fact that dentistry is something that can be provided like supermarket commodities where things get cheaper the more and the quicker you churn them out for.

The only way the service can be provided more cheaply per treatment, is by bashing out the treatments more quickly.

If you do this, quality, and patient care will suffer.

If this happens, then those patients will have many more problems with their teeth over the medium to longer term. This will create a bigger demand on your service, therefore your service will cost more to run. UNLESS you get your dentists to work quicker.........

That, in a nutshell, is the history of the last 40 years of NHS dentistry.

Toothsmith

vfm wrote:

I personally believe that everyone who is lucky enough to be publicly funded towards thier chosen profession should give something back to society. And no I don't think 8 years is enough. I think that unless you are prepared to give the service back in public services, then you should have to repay the costs afforded to you, on a sliding scale.

Interesting idea - sort of public slavery?

A shame you would have to totally re-write most employment and human rights laws in order to achieve it!

What, out of interest would a drama student be forced to do? Only work for the BBC? Ten years in community theatre? Or isn't 10 years enough either?

It would make the casting of films and soaps very interesting if it was only geriatric actors who'd 'done their time' who were allowed to take part in 'private' productions!

Lawyers? A lifetime in the CPS maybe? Forced to only do legal aid work for the first 20 years of their career?

Maths graduates? Herd them into the classrooms?

WE PAY TAXES!

The more we earn, the more we pay. THIS is what repays our education.

As an NHS dentist I employed 2 nurses. Privately I employ 3 pt time hygienists, a practice manager, another dentist, and four part time nurses.

I sponsor local events, I have kids from the local school round to do stuff the community NHS service can't afford to do.

I personally have raised nearly £4000 for the Anthony Nolan Trust by doing bike rides and the London Marathon.

Just because you lacked the ambition to move from a public sector job (Which despite being less well paid than other sectors, would have given you good job security and - if you have reached that age yet - a good pension) don't assume that those of us that do, lack charitable inclinations.

Toothsmith

Parisien wrote:

So guys...are we still none the wiser as to were to go to get dental care/cosmetic work done in the world apart from the 2/3 countries mentioned?

I know the Germans ( whom I have no doubt are very demanding about standards, rules and regulations), have been for years using the dental services within Hungary for their dental needs); company called Dentours or similar.

Lets say their costs are more affordable to the average patient compared to UK prices?! Why shouldn't people seek to lessen the cost of anything, and everything? Its a free market, let people go where they wish, make informed choices, save a heap of dosh and have a holiday!

The patient isn't always right...lol, but at least they should be allowed to make their own minds up!

All the Germans don't go to Hungary.

Only the ones who, like that type of englishman, see dentistry as a 'thing' that is picked up off a shelf.

This type of person exists across the globe.

My points here are

1. Unless the underlying cause of dental problems is addressed, however much you spend will be a waste of money as, however good it is, it will fail.

I see in the papers that Kate Moss is planning to pay for dental work for Pete Doherty to rebuild his drug abused mouth. If she finds a dentist in this country to do the work (And I'm sure she will) In my opinion, he should not have ANYTHING done until he is straight, as that too will fail, despite the thousands she will undoubtably pay.

In order to monitor things until conditions are stable enough to begin the real rebuild, you will need a dentist local to you.



2. If you have good teeth, and just want cosmetic stuff done, first of all, think long and hard.

Taking a drill to a tooth permanently damages them. Porcelain is nowhere near as strong as natural tooth, and will need replacing every once in a while, whereas enamel will not.

3. Not everything goes to plan.

At any price bracket, in any country. We are dealing with human beings, not washing machines. People respond differently to the same treatment. If you do travel a long distance for treatment, plan beforehand what you will do if something goes wrong and you need to be seen in an emergency.

4. Be aware that if something is done badly, or not with a system or technique used in this country, then a dentist in this country may refuse to see you. Or be forced to have to undo all the work that has been done and re-do it.

If a dentist in this country tries to 'help you out' by trying to fix something that has not been done to what is considered in this country to be 'best practice' (And this can vary quite considerably around the world) then he can be held responsible as well (and be a lot easier to sue than someone abroad). For this reason, if your treatment does not match a UK standard, you may well be told that unless it is replaced, a UK dentist will not be able to look after you.

I hope this helps anyone considering dental treatment abroad - which was the subject of the original thread after all!

LizEstelle

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for those who are trained at vast expense to the taxpayer and then immediately opt for private practice.

Many people on average incomes, let alone those below this, are finding it hard to meet these dentistry charges which presumably are meant to keep the profession at a new comfort level of its own choosing... and which appears on the face of things to be something close to that enjoyed by your average brain surgeon...

I'm sorry Toothsmith but there is a considerable degree of animosity towards dentists out here in averageland both for removing themselves en masse from the public sector and for the perceived gigantic hike in charges subsequently.

There is blatantly something dramatically wrong with a £60 bill for a perfunctory 1-2 minute checkup, followed by 5-10 minutes work doing a bog standard, minor filling ... no x-ray, no anaesthetic jab. That was my experience yesterday and IMHO there can be no justification for it. The receptionist looked totally embarrassed as she asked me for the payment and I can scarcely blame her.

The government has to step in here and bring in a few thousand dentists from Eastern Europe. The plumbers haven't much liked the effects of the latest influx of competition... and nor, I suspect, will you. How much better it would be for EACH dental practice, voluntarily or by legal compulsion, to accept a certain fixed percentage NHS caseload. Shall we kick off with 50%...?

Not, heaven forfend, that I wish to be deliberately provocative, or suchlike...

o_t_e

This certainly makes for an interesting discussion though it seems to have strayed beyond the original posters question - it would be interesting, though perhaps invasive to enquire as to what they define as 'cosmetic' work.

Perhaps use of the forums search facility may reveal relevant information; not sure about south east asia but I do recall threads with contributions from those who have used cheap flights to make their 'local' dentist one in Poland, Prague, Budapest etc and have established relationships there.

Toothsmith

LizEstelle wrote:

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for those who are trained at vast expense to the taxpayer and then immediately opt for private practice.

This very rarely happens.

New graduates do Vocational training which is a year or sometimes two within a (NHS) practice.

They then spend quite a few more years, on average, within the NHS, as very few owners of private practices would take on a dentist with little experience.

At the moment though, due to the wondrous thing that is our 'new contract' new graduates are finding that there is a shortage of these training places, which gives them no option but to go into private practice from day one, assuming they can find a vacancy. Otherwise they will have to go abroad.

How crazy is that!!!

As to your experiences at a private practice, I would agree that you have not got value for money there.

This is why I have given all the advice I have on this site in the past as to how to find a decent private practice.

The problem is that all the good private practices are virtually full to capacity, and being good practices they only take on patients if they have space for them.

There are decent practices out there and if you look carefully you can find them.

If you feel you are not getting value for money, then look around.




P.S. Did you know that your examination and filling on the NHS would have been £42.40 even if it was done by a Pole. So it was only £18 more expensive privately!! Hardly scam of the century is it?

adonis

There is blatantly something dramatically wrong with a £60 bill for a perfunctory 1-2 minute checkup, followed by 5-10 minutes work doing a bog standard, minor filling ... no x-ray, no anaesthetic jab. That was my experience yesterday and IMHO there can be no justification for it. The receptionist looked totally embarrassed as she asked me for the payment and I can scarcely blame her.[STRIKE][/STRIKE]

customer how much, it only took ten minutes to do that job.

workman no it has taken me ten years.

Having said that i dont condone what people have to pay to get their teeth done, my nhs dentist is reasonable but i have to wait two months for an appointment.

LizEstelle

Toothsmith, your post doesn't really answer the point though, does it?

The fact is that there is a large and growing resentment in Joe Public for the high-handed way in which the profession appears to have behaved.

I'm well aware that there are two sides to this story and that the government has been singularly inept at managing the contractual side of NHS dentistry. I do appreciate that the picture is not black and white.

However, perception is what counts and most people I've talked to are unhappy with the dentists on this one, not the government. Indeed, the perception is that dentists have gone out of their way to act selfishly. If the profession had actually WANTED to present the worst possible image of their motives and lay the groundwork for the government to take punitive action against them, they couldn't have gone about things better.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, I would guess that we won't have to wait as far as the next election for something dramatic to come out of Whitehall ... unless the profession has the collective canniness to defuse the situation by making at least some gesture.

Incidentally, the figures I've quoted are completely standard for my area, down to the last 5p. Not so much the whiff of 'competition'... but more of some cosy, Sunday morning golf course 'understandings'...

Pammur_2

What an interesting debate! My first post, let's see what happens...

My lovely NHS dentist is now private and I have to pay his dental plan of £10.88 a month for a benefit of a discount on his rates. This is bizarre.

I have lived in South Africa for over 26 years, and can certainly recommend any medical care there - and would still go there for dentistry providing a friend had recommended him/her. I also understand Spain has good dentistry at cheaper rates, and have been recommended to Polish dentists too.

So, here I am back in the UK with my nice teeth, 8 years with no trouble except for recently some stress-related teeth-grinding problems.

My complaint would be with first of all the standard of dentistry offered by the NHS - English dentistry is the laughing-stock of American sitcoms. My proof - Tony Blair's teeth for a start. How shameful that he is in ultimately in charge of the Nation's health and has such appalling teeth. What does that say about the British dentistry care system.

My second complaint is with the UK private health system. In South Africa I paid a monthly amount into a private medical aid system; my employer also contributed, and then most if not all of the treatment was free. It was still private treatment - and I mean being treated as if I was a very special person in a surgery with superb equipment etc - they would be horrified to hear your view of them as mutilatorsand not having to 'fear' the bills. I am terrified of what to do when I retire very shortly.

Toothsmith - whose posts I have admired for some time - says that his tax is paying for new dentists - this sounds a bit personal! Funny that, my taxes also go to pay for new dentists. But, my father, who was a dental surgeon had to pay his own University fees, then had to become an NHS dental surgeon (no choice) and then paid tax all his life to pay for new dentists.

I think people were discussing the system of appalling British dental health care rather than practioners.

bonnie_2

My friend moved to ireland and they are far more expensive over there, you even have to pay to see a doctor. Roll on 25 years and i very much doubt there will be an nhs at all.
£60 works out at £1 a week over a year, it's not expensive, it amazes me how many people have sky tv and mobile phones and go out drinking, yet can't afford the dentist.