Dental Work Abroad

Toothsmith

pwni wrote:

If you're suggesting that I am automatically going to be mutilated/receive substandard treatment anywhere in the world other than Britain then that is ludicrous.

You are going abroad looking for good treatment, not just to have teeth out. That was a specific reply to a poster who went abroad for check-ups teeth out and cleans. In the UK, and many countries, we'd be a bit keener to offer a bit more than that.

pwni wrote:

I am well aware of the minefield I am stepping over by doing this but am trying to establish here exactly where the mines are likely to be and how to avoid them.

The biggest mine is the fact that people are not washing machines, and you can't always change the parts with 100% predictable results.

You could use this trip as a reconnaissance mission, and then get the work done when you can factor in time for 'worst case scenarios'. But if you plan to visit somewhere, get your teeth done, and move on somewhere else, I would advise against it.

pwni wrote:

The prime consideration (over and above cost!) is quality of work. If I can't find a dentist on my travels who I have complete confidence in then I will certainly be waiting until my return.

A very sensible attitude. I would advise you go somewhere where the quality is known to you. You only get one set of teeth, and do not take chances with them.

vfm

Toothsmith on one hand you state that dentist can't pick and choose, however you then go on to say that some dentist have been given the choice to keep children on NHS. Therefore they are still picking and choosing in my opinion.

As for your comment that 'It was either see everybody on the NHS or see nobody! Bit of a no-brainer really!' This is what I would like to see implemented. Whatever happened to people working in the public sector not to make huge salaries, but to provide a good service!(whilst making a decent living).

As to the bit about ''saying NO to going private'. Fortunately, from my point of view, not everyone is like you and Steve'. I have spoken to many about this matter and not one person I have spoken to is happy about it. Maybe Steve and I are more proactive. These changes have just taken place recently and you may find as time goes by that it will not be fortunate for you, but unfortunate when people start looking for alternatives.

'There are also some people who value good care and service, and know what good dentistry is all about.' I value good care and service thats why I've continued to pay for checkups for 5 years when not requiring any treatment. However what I not prepared to do, is in my opinion be 'ripped off'.

'Some people actually DO bother to find out what's going on, and direct the blame where it is due.' I find this comment very condicending. I am a professionally qualified person who has worked in accounting, research and compliance and the understanding of complicated leglisation and laws. I do find out what is going on. In my opinion dentist were not being asked to live on below the average wage. As for blame, I think it rest solely with the dentists. For many years I worked in jobs in the public sector on a lot lower salary than I could have obtained privately. I also gave my time freely for other voluntary organisation when I could have been charging thousands. I did this as my way of contributing to society, for the input it had given to me. My choice I know. These days most people just seem to be out to earn as much as they can without giving anything back. Can I ask were you funding by the state to train as a dentist?
'I wold say vfm, that £240 a year to cover your teeth is very good value for money.'£240 may not be a lot to a well paid dentist, however this is the amount I now live on for 3 weeks (£80 per week).
I can assure you that I will not pay the insurance fee to my dentist.

Steve_xx

Toothsmith wrote:

1. Dentists going private INCREASE their fees, but DECREASE the number of patient they look after in order to focus on quality of care. Net effect is that dentist income remains the same (Backed by inland revenue figures)

2. OFT looked into private dentistry 3 years ago (OFT website) Most of the few recommendations they made have already been implemented.

3. Specsavers DID set up a small scale pilot of NHS dental practices about 8 years ago. They soon moved on when they found the NHS 'a totally unworkable system' More recently, Boots set up dental clinics on a private model (charging prices similar to independent dental practices). Last year they sold these practices to Vision Express, who continue to try and run them. They struggle though due to turnover of staff. dentistry is a very intimate service, and people like to see the same dentist each time. In big corporations, staff turnover is too high to make people feel at ease.

There is a big player in the NHS market. Intergrated Dental holdings WEBSITE these are the people who opened the NHS practice in my town a few months ago. It is the best recruiting tool for my practice ever!!!

One thing you didn't mention if you were Secretary of State was opening your own Government practices and driving costs down that way.

This too has been tried, about 7 years ago with the infamous 'access centres'

Quite a few of these were set up at about £1m a shot. strangely enough, it seemed to be Labour marginal constituancies that got them.

All they ever really did was to fix emergencies, and then tell people to find a 'real' dentist. Their cost-per-patient-VISIT worked out at about £300!!!!!!! The average high street NHS practice was working on an average cost to the taxpayer of £32 per COURSE OF TREATMENT!

Back in the late 80's when I qualified, the vast majority of dentistry was carried out on the NHS. It wasn't perfect, but it worked well.

If the funding level of that time had kept pace with rising costs, there would be no shortage today, as nobody would have broken ranks and just gone private for the sake of it. It would have been commercial suicide.

Meddling politicians, chipping away at the budgets made it impossible to continue to provide NHS care.

Dentists were always at the fringes of the NHS. We own our own practices and are financially responsible for them. If the income does not meet the expenditure then something has to change. That change was the move to private care (My theory is that this is exactly what the Government want - they CAN'T be soooo stupid to have let this come about by accident).

Now that the private genie is out of the bottle, and dentists have the taste for providing quality care free from Government beurocracy, no amount of money is going to get it back again.

I would not go back to providing NHS care if they tripled the fees overnight.

I would be perfectly willing to provide care for anybody in my practice. If the NHS would like me to see somebody for treatment that is fine, but they would get the same billl that I would have given to the patient, and I would expect it to be paid in full prior to commencing the treatment on that patient.


EDIT - At the OFT website, type dentistry into the search box

So, you're saying that dentists stop performing NHS work so that they can offer a quality service on a private basis, are you? Thereby implying that the NHS work that they formerly undertook was not of a particularly good quality? And that these dentists take this decision, and have taken it jointly and severally, in the name of quality of service rather than for an increase in revenues? I think not.

The OFT may have looked into the services that dentists provided 3 years ago. Clearly, they need to take another look at the current appalling situation in view of the fact that dentists have increased their tariff significantly during that period.

Clearly, the current situation cannot continue unabated in the UK. Dentists will have to be subjected to competition and tougher regulation and I for one will welcome it. There will surely be an influx of dentists from other EEC states, particularly the eastern european states. There will be some good and some bad amongst them, just as there is with UK trained dentists. But the point is that there will be more of them and therefore there will be a greater choice than there is at present.

People are right to seek their dental care in other domains if thy feel it will be both cost-effective and of comparable quality. The very notion that UK citizens are increasingly taking this action ought to be message enough to you that the feeling among the general public is that UK dentists are ripping us off.

Toothsmith

vfm wrote:

Can I ask were you funding by the state to train as a dentist?

Yes I was. Are there any conditions attached to that funding?

Does everybody who receives a public funded education have to do 'National service'? Or just dentists?

I worked within the NHS for 8 years after qualifying. Was that long enough? It was for me!

In the time I have been qualified, my taxes will have paid for several more dentists to be trained, or lawyers or accountants or media studies students (What must they be made to do to repay the state?)

If you think I now earn loads more now that I'm private, then I'll be paying loads more taxes, and providing an even better return on my training costs.


Dentists being asked to live below average earnings? No we weren't.

If I'd have wanted to live on average earnings though, I certainly wouldn't have put myself through the stress of qualifying as a dentist. Neither would I have risked (approx.) 1/2 million pounds investing in my practice and the stress of running it.

If you have the capacity to understand the financial and legislative issues involved, I would urge you to do so. We DO need an affordable solution to the crisis in dental care, but so long as people just blame the dentists, Government is never going to do anything about it.

Toothsmith

Steve_xx wrote:

So, you're saying that dentists stop performing NHS work so that they can offer a quality service on a private basis, are you? Thereby implying that the NHS work that they formerly undertook was not of a particularly good quality? And that these dentists take this decision, and have taken it jointly and severally, in the name of quality of service rather than for an increase in revenues? I think not.

Well - You are wrong.

I went private when I felt that the quality of my work would be severely impaired if I remained within the NHS.

Since I have been private, the quality of my work has improved.

The inland revenue figure show that dentists with the majority of their income coming for private sources earn just under 5% more than dentists predominantly NHS. Hardly a huge difference.

Some of the biggest earning dentists in the country have large chains of NHS practices (Often employing foreign dentists as they're cheaper than the UK ones - so the foreign dentist influx is not really benefitting patients)

You can ignore my arguments all you want. (Nothing of my last post to you seems to have gone in) But it cannot change the truth of the situation.

Steve_xx

Toothsmith wrote:

Well - You are wrong.

I went private when I felt that the quality of my work would be severely impaired if I remained within the NHS.

Since I have been private, the quality of my work has improved.

The inland revenue figure show that dentists with the majority of their income coming for private sources earn just under 5% more than dentists predominantly NHS. Hardly a huge difference.

Some of the biggest earning dentists in the country have large chains of NHS practices (Often employing foreign dentists as they're cheaper than the UK ones - so the foreign dentist influx is not really benefitting patients)

You can ignore my arguments all you want. (Nothing of my last post to you seems to have gone in) But it cannot change the truth of the situation.

No, no, I'm not wrong, because I didn't say that in the first instance, you did. You have further gone on to say how your work quality has improved since taking your options private. Thereby implying that your former NHS work wasn't as good in quality as you are now offering as a private dentist.

You may well say that a 5% hike in your income is not significant. But this is relative to what you earn. If you earn 300k per annum then this would amount to a hike of 15k. If your dental nurse earns 15k per annum it amounts to £750 per annum. Your 5% hike is the equivalent to the whole of the dental nurses salary. Is that entirely reasonable? Could you not forego some of your hike, given that you have a notional income of 300k, to give your dental nurse a better standard of living and thus enable that dental nurse to actually afford to have their own dental health kept upto scratch?

I'm not choosing to "ignore your arguments", as you say. I'm choosing to not agree with them in their entirety. I'm free to do that and it is a blessing that one of the things that dentists cannot charge us for is having an opinion on something.

Toothsmith

Steve_xx wrote:

You have further gone on to say how your work quality has improved since taking your options private. Thereby implying that your former NHS work wasn't as good in quality as you are now offering as a private dentist.

I'm not implying it at all.

I am saying it out loud.

My work is better now I'm not having to do it so fast.

I wish I did earn £300k!!!!!!

Recent report by the Office of National Statistics has an average dentist at £41k - about the same as a good plumber.

Where did you get £300k from may I ask? Thin air?

I earn a bit more than the average, as I'm full time, and I'm a practice owner.

It's still less than a third of your figure though.

Steve_xx

Toothsmith wrote:

I'm not implying it at all.

I am saying it out loud.

My work is better now I'm not having to do it so fast.

I wish I did earn £300k!!!!!!

Recent report by the Office of National Statistics has an average dentist at £41k - about the same as a good plumber.

Where did you get £300k from may I ask? Thin air?

I earn a bit more than the average, as I'm full time, and I'm a practice owner.

It's still less than a third of your figure though.

I used the 300k figure as an indicator for comparison purposes of a 5% hike. I did not say that I thought this was the amount you earned. Did I?

I don't mind what you earn. Good luck to you if you can earn a decent living for yourself.

What we are objecting to is the sudden steep hikes in the cost of dental provision in this country and it seems that these hikes are largely borne by the fact that dentists have in the main taken their practises private.

Parisien

So guys...are we still none the wiser as to were to go to get dental care/cosmetic work done in the world apart from the 2/3 countries mentioned?

I know the Germans ( whom I have no doubt are very demanding about standards, rules and regulations), have been for years using the dental services within Hungary for their dental needs); company called Dentours or similar.

Lets say their costs are more affordable to the average patient compared to UK prices?! Why shouldn't people seek to lessen the cost of anything, and everything? Its a free market, let people go where they wish, make informed choices, save a heap of dosh and have a holiday!

The patient isn't always right...lol, but at least they should be allowed to make their own minds up!

vfm

I personally believe that everyone who is lucky enough to be publicly funded towards thier chosen profession should give something back to society. And no I don't think 8 years is enough. I think that unless you are prepared to give the service back in public services, then you should have to repay the costs afforded to you, on a sliding scale. That is why I now fully support fees for students wanting to go to University, as many people today take and do not want to give.
Unlike years ago when people just use to listen to 'the professional' and take thier word for everything, people are now starting to question and disagree. I think this is a good thing and hopefully in the long run dentist will have to go the same way as opticians have.
I think it is right that people are not only comparing prices but also quality and 'best practice', when they obtain services.