T-Mobile; another huge bill due to thievery

Early_Q

I am looking to translate the phrase "Lesbian bagels!" into as many languages as possible. So far I have English, Spanish, and Dutch. If you post anything that requires non-ASCII characters, please include a large transparent image of the phrase, as my character sets suck. Feel free to post something that isn't "Lesbian bagels!" to try to fool me; it will make for lots of laughs!

Please help. Thank you!

daindian

Early_Q wrote: »

Hello,

Quick search on Google made me realise this is quite commonplace but a friend of mine lost her phone and within 24 hours nearly £900 had been run up with calls to Pakistan. Unfortunately the contract holder wasn't aware of any of this until the phone was barred from making calls.

I know the default position is that liability falls with the customer up until the phone is reported missing to the network, but I've heard of mobile operators mitigating the bill/chopping off their profit element.

Main objectives are to get the bill reduced as much as possible and at least hopefully get a spread payment plan. I just wanted some advice on the best way of achieving this rather than steam-rolling into over the phone.



Got the basic bargaining chips: no duty of care regarding fraud detection, going way over usual usage/the account cap. I could add a genuine threat to complain to Otelo (the ombudsman) but a quick look at Otelo's website and T-Mobile aren't listed as a member company if anyone can confirm this :think:.

Thanks for taking the time to read!

comsumer direct say that t-mobile is part of othelo

Browntoa

duty of care/responsibility lies with the customer I'm afraid, they may apply some goodwill but I would expect them to ask for full payment

Jon_01

They won't reduces as a rule. They'll state that the only thing you have to do is have control of the handset. And if it wasn't missed for 24 hours it would 'appear' to be negligence on the part of the owner.

eranou

Early_Q wrote: »

Hello,

Quick search on Google made me realise this is quite commonplace but a friend of mine lost her phone and within 24 hours nearly £900 had been run up with calls to Pakistan. Unfortunately the contract holder wasn't aware of any of this until the phone was barred from making calls.

I know the default position is that liability falls with the customer up until the phone is reported missing to the network, but I've heard of mobile operators mitigating the bill/chopping off their profit element.

Main objectives are to get the bill reduced as much as possible and at least hopefully get a spread payment plan. I just wanted some advice on the best way of achieving this rather than steam-rolling into over the phone.

Got the basic bargaining chips: no duty of care regarding fraud detection, going way over usual usage/the account cap. I could add a genuine threat to complain to Otelo (the ombudsman) but a quick look at Otelo's website and T-Mobile aren't listed as a member company if anyone can confirm this :think:.

Thanks for taking the time to read!

I wouldnt steam in with treats to ofcom/otelo as in reality t-mobile havent actually done anything wrong you would more likely just get their backs up.

I would try sending an email to the customer relations [EMAIL="cust.rel@t-mobile.co.uk"]cust.rel@t-mobile.co.uk[/EMAIL] or the directors office [EMAIL="CSDIR@t-mobile.co.uk"]CSDIR@t-mobile.co.uk[/EMAIL]

Those teams have the authority to reduce the charges but be polite outline the issues clearly and stick to the point and you have more of a chance of a negotiated price.

wantmemoney

http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/services/terms-and-conditions/

http://support.t-mobile.co.uk/help-and-support/index?page=html&cat=LOST_OR_STOLEN_PHONE

Lost or stolen phones

Losing your phone or having it stolen can be a traumatic experience

If it happens to you, call us immediately on 0845 412 5000 (charged at local toll rates) or, if calling from abroad, +44 7953 966150 (international call rates apply), and we'll do what we can to minimise your stress.

If you're calling from a pay phone, we can call you back.
We can also call a partner/parent on your behalf to explain the situation.
We can blacklist your phone so it will be unusable - our network can recognise if a phone has been reported lost or stolen. You can add a password in case you find your phone at a later date.
We'll send you a replacement SIM card - a £10 charge applies to cover administration costs which will be debited from your balance or added to your next bill.
We'll give you your phone's identification number (IMEI), which you should pass on to the police.
Report your lost or stolen phone right away. Until you notify T-Mobile you're liable for the cost of any services used on your missing handset.
fonesafe should be notified within 48 hours of discovering the incident.
We have a phone replacement service and can check your eligibility.
By signing up to My T-Mobile, you will be able to search for your most recently dialled mobile numbers to help you reconstruct your phone book.

http://support.t-mobile.co.uk/resources/sites/TMOBILE/content/live/DOCUMENTS/0/DO117/en_GB/T&C's%20V58%20Pay%20Monthly%20July%202010.pdf

Terms and conditions.
The legal terms You need to know about Your pay monthly telephone
service. Version 58 dated July 2010.

7. Lost or Stolen phones. If either Your phone or SIM Card are lost or
stolen, please call customer services at once. You will have to pay
for any Charges incurred on Your Account before You told Us. (See
points 2.9.1 and 4.6 of these terms and conditions.)
[.....]
2.9. The following terms apply to SIM Cards:
2.9.1. if a SIM Card is lost, stolen or damaged, You should call
customer services for a new one (see point 4.6). We may
charge for a replacement.

4.6. You are responsible for all Charges applied to Your Account,
except Charges applied after You called customer services to
advise that Your SIM Card has been lost or stolen (see point 2.9.1).

Terms and conditions have to be fair and have to comply with UK law. Consumer, criminal, Regulatory for example.

On what grounds are T-Mobile claiming the customer is liable for the bill?

ps I'm not disagreeing with what has already been said but I find this area all rather questionable.

Guys_Dad

wantmemoney wrote: »

Terms and conditions have to be fair and have to comply with UK law. Consumer, criminal, Regulatory for example.

On what grounds are T-Mobile claiming the customer is liable for the bill?

ps I'm not disagreeing with what has already been said but I find this area all rather questionable.

Same basis as your liability to a Card company if you lose your debit/credit card. Your problem till it is reported. Surely somewhere along the line people have to take responsibility for their own misfortunes???

Chorlie

This is the reason everyone should not only set a PIN lock on their phone but also on the SIM card.

This will lock the phone and if they remove the SIM to use in an unlocked phone they won't be able to use it without the PIN.

wantmemoney

Guys_Dad wrote:

Same basis as your liability to a Card company if you lose your debit/credit card. Your problem till it is reported.

No! Credit Cards and phone accounts are completely different.

http://paycreditcard.amoblog.com/are-you-liable-for-credit-card-payments-if-your-card-is-stolen.html

According to the Banking Code, section 12:

Liability for losses
12.11 If you act fraudulently, you will be responsible for all losses on your account. If you act without reasonable care, and this causes losses, you may be responsible for them.

As long as you have not acted with complete recklessness, or participated in fraud, you are protected by the following section of the Banking Code.

12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently or without reasonable care, your liability for the misuse of your card will be limited as follows.

• If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50.Your liability for charges made to your lost or stolen card is £50 per card. In many cases, credit card issuers will even waive that first £50 if you report your card stolen within a reasonable amount of time.

• If someone else uses your card details without your permission, and your card has not been lost or stolen, you will not have to pay anything.

• If someone else uses your card details without your permission for a transaction where the cardholder does not need to be present, you will not have to pay anything.

• If your card is used before you have received it, you will not have to pay anything.

I was actually asking what legal ground the Network Operators would use if a dispute went to court for example.

I'm sure you will agree that- 'Surely somewhere along the line people have to take responsibility for their own misfortunes???' - is an opinion and not a legal argument.
I'm just puzzled how a criminal act can form part of a customer sales agreement for 'goods and services'.

or are they saying the customer is responsible for financial harm that T-mobile has incurred?


again I am not siding with one side or the other. I'm just curious.

dmg24

wantmemoney wrote: »

No! Credit Cards and phone accounts are completely different.

I was actually asking what legal ground the Network Operators would use if a dispute went to court for example.

I'm sure you will agree that- 'Surely somewhere along the line people have to take responsibility for their own misfortunes???' - is an opinion and not a legal argument.
I'm just puzzled how a criminal act can form part of a customer sales agreement for 'goods and services'.

or are they saying the customer is responsible for financial harm that T-mobile has incurred?


again I am not siding with one side or the other. I'm just curious.

Taking responsibility for your own misfortunes is most certainly not an opinion - mitigation of loss is a legal principle, as is contributory negligence.

wantmemoney

dmg24 wrote:

Taking responsibility for your own misfortunes is most certainly not an opinion

yes but that means very little in UK Law and could equally apply to the Network Operator

dmg24 wrote:

mitigation of loss is a legal principle

Yes but that equally refers to what steps the Network Operator could have taken (if any) to limit the loss.

http://www.gillhams.com/articles/374.cfm
Reducing Damages Awards: Mitigation of Loss in Contractual and Intellectual Property Claims
After determination of liability in a contract claim, legal proceedings move on to the quantum of damages that will be ordered to be paid to the successful claimant. Firstly, the sum of compensation to be paid to the claimant is limited to the loss suffered by the claimant, as far as money can do it. A claimant also has a duty to mitigate their loss. This is about reducing damage suffered that should have been avoided by the claimant. Losses that are not mitigated do not have to be paid by the defendant, thus reducing the sum to be paid by a defendant.
Mitigation of damage arises in a number of contexts. Claimants to legal proceedings have a positive duty to avoid suffering loss when a legal wrong has been suffered be them. Mitigation is a powerful set of legal principles that entitle a defendant to argue that they are obliged to pay lesser sums in a claim for damages.