Halifax rewards accts block?closed not happy with conduct of accts,UPDATED 11-11-10

tobiascurious

Halifax. They will tell you all the data they hold on you

masonic

jambosans wrote: »

I doubt it, but (someone correct me if I'm wrong), they may report it to CIFAS. The CIFAS website states:-

I doubt they'd want to open themselves up to a defamation of character law suit (that's not even considering the Financial Ombudsman Service, who will undoubtedly be on your side if Halifax maintain that the reason they are closing your account is due to fraud). Let's not forget, this fraud accusation is not true, the people making it know it's not true, they're just trying to justify their dislike of you exploiting their loophole.

johnmoney05

Don't be silly. You have done nothing serious wrong (most of us do that). Just ask them to provide you any T&Cs to justify it. Those are your money, you do what you like. If they don't like they can surely cloes your accounts providing giving you some sort of time scale, but not calling it as fraud? Fraud of what? Also, since you are in the branch, you can also ask WTH to ask you to provide IDs then close your accounts. Tell them you have better things to do.

Sailmakers

Don't worry you won't be done for fraud or made to pay any interest back. Worst case scenario is that they'll close an account and give you a slap on the wrist.

It's known in the industry as 'gaming' and it sound likes they've caught you. Trust me, somewhere down the line you have broken the T&C's...

masonic

Sailmakers wrote: »

It's known in the industry as 'gaming' and it sound likes they've caught you. Trust me, somewhere down the line you have broken the T&C's...

No, really, if all the OP was doing is cycling some money between Reward accounts to satisfy their funding requirements then no T&Cs have been broken. If there was anything in the T&Cs to prohibit that, then this "fraud" silliness would never have occurred.

chexum

jambosans wrote: »

However, they are not going to give too much detail if they suspect fraud/ money laundering as this would be classed as "tipping off" - which is an offence in itself.

This starts to worry me - this "tipping off" thing should only apply to (funds from suspected) proceeds of crime. How on earth would they classify money cycled around in the same bank in the same extended family of unknown origin?

This below is pure madness - but is, as far as I can tell, only concerning suspending transactions - can not ever mean any "unwelcome" account conduct. If this is how they want to get out of the deal they offered, they need a slap on their wrists, IMHO.

"[SIZE=-1]This means that a financial firm, and the Financial Ombudsman Service:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]cannot, at the time, tell a customer that a transaction is being delayed because a report has been made under the Proceeds of Crime Act; and
  
  [/SIZE]
• [SIZE=-1]cannot later – unless NCIS agrees – tell a customer that a transaction was delayed because a report had been made under the Proceeds of Crime Act.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]if a firm receives a complaint: if a firm receives a complaint in these circumstances, it may be unable to explain its reasons to the customer – who may then bring the complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service."[/SIZE]

pcyam

Just an update on what happened in case it does happen to anyone else as they pretty much said that the company are trying to stop this.

Bit of a long update so bear with me but will only put points where things went wrong.

Last week when this happened to my mum I told the advisor I would be taking the day off 14-10-2010, the only day I was allowed off.

Went in nice and early 9.30am as the car was booked in fpr 11am. To be told unfortunaltely the advisor was on holiday this week and the business manager who was taking over was on her day off!! Great start. The only person available would be the on spec advisor but was seeing a customer only free mid morning or late afternoon, so booked appointment for 3pm after I had picked up the car. I even asked the manager (one of many in that branch) would this be enough time, she replied yes, it shouldnt take long.

2.50pm, got the the branch nice and early, waited at the reception desk and they said that the advisor would be able to help and answer any questions I may have as she was below the Business Manager who was on her day off. Fair enough. Advisor came over sat me down, and asked me was it just to close the accounts as she had no idea what was going on!!!

Explained I did not know what was going on myself and only been told to bring in ID and that my accounts were blocked. She went away photocopied and faxed them off. Came back and said that she was told to tell me that they were unhappy with the conduct of the account and they were closing the accounts. I said fine but 1) what was the reason to closing the accounts and 2) if you are going to close the accounts including the 2 bonds am I going to be penalised on interest for the early closure?? Didnt know the answer and will ring them back.

Came back finally and she said that the reason for the closures was because I was moving the money about in halifax and could defraud halifax by increasing my chances of applying for loans, cc and mortgage. I said yes I could but have I though, each time I come into the branch or online I'm told I am guarnteed for a credit card and loan of £xx, but each time I refuse them. I understood that she was only doing her job but I was mearly stating a fact.

She continued that she will close all accounts except 1 bank account and the 1 bond as the interest will be paid 25-11-2010, the bond will be closed in the bank account and all funds returned back to me. This could all be done as they have verified who I am through the passport.

So what about the 2nd bond with the smaller amount. She didnt even register there was 2 bonds even though I told her. Before she was to walk off again for another however long as 1 and a half hour hand gone by. I wanted her to ask specific questions which I had asked, 1) why were my accounts blocked and due to be closed, 2) what conditions have I broken. Also, I wanted a list of all the accounts and how much was in the accounts before closure (as they had miscalculated my mums money and still owe her-because the business manager was away).


Whilst she was on the phone, she asked me to go a cashier who would give me money from the 2 bank accounts and websaver.

about 5 mins went, she came back and said as the bond had to be closed today but as there was only £500 the interest you would have received would have been less that £10, and as in Sept you received the £10 from the other 2 bank accounts you've had more interest combined than the bond!!! I didnt shout at any point nor when she told me that, I said that is besides the point the money from the bank accounts have nothing what so ever to do with the bond, she goes back to the phone and gives me the phone

I speak to the fraud department saying the same thing,
1) The £5 bank account had nothing to do with the bond interest
2) The fact that if I was to move the money because of credit, I would have said yes straightaway and applied for cards and loands way before this happened.
3) I also said that the reason I originally knew about all this was because an advoisor at this very branch was promoting it openly and had done it for all their customers!!
4) It is a known fact that alot of people are doing this and the information is available on how to do this.
5) 1st of Sept I had used their switcher service and would be paid tomorrow.
6) I was originally thinking of transferring all ISA's to the branch, (not now I'm not)


As soon as I said that someone in that branch advised this, she went and spoke to the guy who blocked my families accounts, she came back and apologised that a member of staff advised me this, that my accounts were not closed due to fraud but how I was jsut moving money around for the £5 and the fact I was misusing the accounts to apply credit, she knew that it was on the internet and that they were cracking dwon on this and monitoring people who were doing it to defraud (cc and loans) and that I had not done any of this and that she would not close my accounts, I was :eek: the cashier has already closed 2 of the accounts, but she was like no they havent they will be closed in 60days time from the date of the letter. But as long as you do not transfer more than £1000 into the accounts, I was like well for starters I will as my salary be over that and I was planning on using the accounts to pay bills and spending so the chances are I will be transferring £1000 into each account!! She was doing that nervy thing ans sounded defeated when she didnt know what to say. She wanted to speak to the advisor who didnt have a clue and asked for advise on the phone as to whether to reverse everything that has been done by the cashier. I was like NO, the branch had closed like 10mins ago, I will take the cheques bank them in my old bank account and consider to close the bank accounts when I can and keep the bonds where they are until they mature.

Phone down. I was like shocked as it was over 2hrs I had been there sitting there doing absolutely nothing, the girl goes I didnt know that you could speak to them if I did this could had been down in half and hr, wasting my time and yours!!! And would you like to continue with the complaint. ER YES, the business manager will ring you tomorrow to follow up the complaint, but as the first point of call she had to fill in the form. she didnt even know how to fill in the bloody complaint form-reason for complaint, what had been done and whether or not I was happy, I had to tell her that she couldnt finish it as it hadnt been 'resolved' until i speak to the business manager. And to top it off when I was told that it wouldnt take too long in the morning I really didnt expect it to take over 2hsr, my car at this stage was still in the garage waiting to be picked up and the garage was closing in 3 minutes and they were 45mins away so had to get my sister to take me to the garage otherwise I would have no car for work tomorrow!!!!

WHAT A PALARVA!!!!!

sorry for the long post.

jambosans

As I suspected.

I also just want to highlight to other posters who keep suggesting the OP was accused of fraud. I've re-read the OP's post and at no point do they state Halifax accused them of fraud. Although there may be an implication of possible fraud when mentioning "the fraud team are not happy with the conduct of the accounts", at no point have Halifax accused the OP of fraud.

Fraud have become involved as the OP's account conduct could be construed as an attempt to manipulate their internal/ behavioral score in order to obtain credit. This is fraud.

Fraud_Act_2006 wrote:

2 Fraud by false representation
(1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b)intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

Now, again, I am not suggesting the OP ever intended this, but, as an example, I will apply the quoted text to the scenario discussed on this thread. If the OP was aware that Halifax provided pre-approved offers on accounts with a high value throughput, and they deliberately inflated this throughout using the same small credit, this would be false representation. This type of fraud would be incredibly difficult to prove, which is why I've stated twice now, closing accounts is a precaution in order to mitigate the risk.

It's an unfortunate situation, one which is semi-resolved, however press on with the complaint - you might get a bit of goodwill for your time and inconvenience.

LongTermLurker

It's an unfortunate situation, one which is semi-resolved, however press on with the complaint - you might get a bit of goodwill for your time and inconvenience.

Maybe you could ask for a fee-free £1000 overdraft? That would avoid having to transfer lots of small amounts round each month and Halifax would benefit from not having to handle false alarms?

Thanks for sharing the results of this debacle - please let us know how it pans out.

edit - Hang on, if debit interest is only added at the end of the day and it only takes 30 seconds to service 3 accounts, have I been slow here...? On second thoughts, they could get really upset playing that game

chexum

jambosans wrote: »

As I suspected.

I also just want to highlight to other posters who keep suggestion the OP was accused of fraud. I've re-read the OP's post and at no point do they state Halifax accused them of fraud. Although there may be an implication of possible fraud when mentioning "the fraud team are not happy with the conduct of the accounts", at no point have Halifax accused the OP of fraud.

Which no financial organisation will ever do - it's either not a fraud, a fraud investigation in progress, which they can't talk about Or an actual fraud that they no longer need to accuse you of, since they must just terminate all relationship.

Possibly this tipping off thing applies (or they consider it to apply) to all kinds of fraud scenarios, even for those invented by banks. "Do you have a typo in your address? Naah, surely you are trying to apply to credit fraudulently, so we can't discuss with you anything. No way we could trust you and just ask if you want to show your correct details, no, that would be like, intelligent".

I read a bit more about it, and probably there is an automated flagging triggered to catch Layering:

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/productsandservices/practicenotes/aml/4053.article#h1layer
"layering obscures their origins by passing the money through complex transactions"

As soon as this got flagged up for possible fraud, they needed to keep shut, confirm identity (blocking the account can not happen under normal circumstances, should only be the result of suspected fraud - so any bank blocking an account is possibly tipping off a criminal ), and as a result of the investigation, they decided that they don't want to dole out the fivers.

What's the worst of this story is that noone from the branch wanted responsibility for this decision. But to me, it also highlights that any application is very-very carefully scrutinised, and any misstep, or "white lie" ("want to pay your salary in this account?" yes - did they mean immediately?) may bite back later.

Thanks to this story, I now know how much to trust banks.