This is what the Tories are really like

LydiaJ

carolt wrote: »

No, I know I absolutely wouldn't.

Would you really?

I can understand people who are hard-up and need every penny trying to use every (legal) loophole to save tax. I cannot even begin to understand why someone who is already a multi-millionaire and who doesn't need a penny of this money can do this with a clear conscience - especially after publicly stating he would do the opposite.

More than that, it really sticks in my gullet that just at the time when we are all facing cuts everywhere, are being told that we must all accept higher taxes/worse public services in order to pay for the country's deficit, that someone is denying the public purse a massive 3.4 million quid. That would save a lot of public sector jobs, pay for a lot of schools' buildings, keep libraries/hospitals open etc etc.

I'm sick of reading about all the ways that we, the ordinary taxpayers, have to tighten our belts, whilst the super-rich Tories - who are spouting this at us - suffer none of the pain they are inflicting on us themselves. Like generals in WWI, telling their soldiers to go over the top from their cushy offices far removed from the front line.

I'd like to see the Tories leading by example.

I have a feeling this 'austerity' drive is going to rather resemble the infamous 'Back to Basics' campaign of the 90s - memorable chiefly for the blatant hypocrisy of the Tories.

I have clean drinking water, electricity, free health care, plenty to eat, clothes and shoes, a roof over my head, mains sanitation. I even have a laptop, broadband, and a means of earning a living that doesn't demand hard labour 18 hours a day, so I have time to come on an internet forum. I'm basking in riches beyond the wildest dreams of most of the world's population.

I have money in an ISA etc so I am avoiding tax.

"The super-rich" includes me. If Ashcroft is a hypocrite for using legal means to divert more of his money to his kids and less to the Treasury, then so am I.

ETA I agree with the drive to close tax loopholes for people like Ashcroft. I agree that he has been disingenuous (at best) about claiming to be paying full tax here when he wasn't. I just know I wouldn't ever volunteer to pay more tax than I needed to. If I want my money to be used to help those with less than me, I choose charities, and the Treasury isn't one of them. Indeed, when I give to charity, I gift-aid it, to decrease my tax contribution in favour of my chosen charities.

Thrugelmir

carolt wrote: »

Do as I say, not as I do; some things never change:

No different to people working in the black market or not declaring rental income. Politics has nothing to do with people paying as little direct tax (Income or VAT) as possible. Ultimately its a human trait.

dunstonh

drc wrote: »

It's not just the Tories though, all MP's are greedy, self-serving, lying ba$tards.

Just like the average consumer on this site then.

carolt

LydiaJ wrote: »

I have clean drinking water, electricity, free health care, plenty to eat, clothes and shoes, a roof over my head, mains sanitation. I even have a laptop, broadband, and a means of earning a living that doesn't demand hard labour 18 hours a day, so I have time to come on an internet forum. I'm basking in riches beyond the wildest dreams of most of the world's population.

I have money in an ISA etc so I am avoiding tax.

"The super-rich" includes me. If Ashcroft is a hypocrite for using legal means to divert more of his money to his kids and less to the Treasury, then so am I.

ETA I agree with the drive to close tax loopholes for people like Ashcroft. I agree that he has been disingenuous (at best) about claiming to be paying full tax here when he wasn't. I just know I wouldn't ever volunteer to pay more tax than I needed to. If I want my money to be used to help those with less than me, I choose charities, and the Treasury isn't one of them. Indeed, when I give to charity, I gift-aid it, to decrease my tax contribution in favour of my chosen charities.

I disagree. I think to knowingly use a loophole the day before it's closed, contrary to all your promises to pay tax properly, stinks.

It's one thing to aim to slightly reduce your tax bill, as you and millions of others do, in an ISA say, as per your example.

It is entirely another to pay NO TAX AT ALL whilst earning millions and to sit in the House of Lords for the Tory party making laws so that others who earn a fraction of what you earn will pay more tax, all the time preaching about the importance of everybody (else!) paying more tax to bail out the economy.

I'm sorry, but the gulf between those two types of behaviour is enormous.

And yes, if I earned more than I could ever reasonably spend, whilst purporting to speak for the govt of our country, there is no way I would ever avoid paying taxes owed to that same country.

I think it's shameful.

A._Badger

carolt wrote: »

I disagree. I think to knowingly use a loophole the day before it's closed, contrary to all your promises to pay tax properly, stinks.

I think it's shameful.

You forgot your last line: "Vote Labour"

This partisan stuff is all good fun but it's only entertainment. The real issue is that they are all as bad as each other and we have no alternative.

chewmylegoff

PhylPho wrote: »

Fair enough to comment on an individual who landed a seat in The Lords on the basis of making a promise to pay taxes which he didn't then keep, but it's plain silly to attempt to make an anti-Tory party political point out of it: any MSEr can come back with the equivalent of "oh aye, so what were Labour MPs doing in the last Government, 'flipping' their properties for tax purposes and cashing in afterwards at our expense"?

I dislike Ashcroft because he said one thing and did another. But I can't get het up about his financial affairs considering that the money he made was from his own resources, whereas MPs of all parties -- including Labour (sorry OP) -- made money from the public purse. . . and then didn't want the public to know about it.

Ashcroft is a pretty repugnant individual for the way he evaded the truth, not the way he evaded tax. But an individual is all he is: not an entire political party. As for the tax situation, where lawful means exist to help an individual minimise what the State takes from her / his purse, then they should take it -- unless, perhaps, the OP views the opening of an ISA as a right-wing political act?

i don't think ashcroft ever said "i will pay as much tax as possible on all of my income and gains". didn't he just promise to end his non-domiciled status. also, the first time around, wasn't the promise made by william hague - not really sure how that works, but if you promised to the revenue that i would pay more tax than i needed to, i wouldn't be paying up.

this doesn't equate to him promising to maximise his uk tax bill. no-one maximises their tax bill. everyone pays as little tax as possible - in the same way as you wouldn't offer to pay tescos an extra £10 for your weekly shop.

nicko33

dunstonh wrote: »

Just like the average consumer on this site then.

Hey! Be nice to all moneysavers. We're real people, not fictional characters in some media reality show like MPs.
You're stereotyping moneysavers as people who want, er, more money.
That doesn't make them greedy, that's erm, sensible.

Heyman_2

dunstonh wrote: »

Just like the average consumer on this site then.

Not so - most of the people who come here are trying to save their hard-earned pennies to get out of debt, or buy a house, or sort out a pension, or save for a holiday etc and this site assists with that.

The already-a-billionaire Ashcroft on the other hand, organises his affairs specifically to ensure that the UK misses out on millions of pounds of taxes that a) he wouldn't even miss, b) he should rightfully be paying, especially as he is to all intents and purposes a resident AND heavily involved in politics and c) the UK badly needs right now given the circumstances and the fact that d) his party are preaching about tax avoidance!!!

Of course we know they're all at it but Ashcroft in particular seems to be pretty shameless given how long his situation has dragged on and the latest revelation.

carolt

A._Badger wrote: »

You forgot your last line: "Vote Labour"

This partisan stuff is all good fun but it's only entertainment. The real issue is that they are all as bad as each other and we have no alternative.

Er...no.

I didn't vote labour at the last election, nor would I now.

It's possible to strongly dislike the tories without being a Labour groupie.

chewmylegoff

Heyman wrote: »

Not so - most of the people who come here are trying to save their hard-earned pennies to get out of debt, or buy a house, or sort out a pension, or save for a holiday etc and this site assists with that.

The already-a-billionaire Ashcroft on the other hand, organises his affairs specifically to ensure that the UK misses out on millions of pounds of taxes that a) he wouldn't even miss, b) he should rightfully be paying, especially as he is to all intents and purposes a resident AND heavily involved in politics and c) the UK badly needs right now given the circumstances and the fact that d) his party are preaching about tax avoidance!!!

Of course we know they're all at it but Ashcroft in particular seems to be pretty shameless given how long his situation has dragged on and the latest revelation.

i think the fact that he is using his fortune to bankroll the tories in order to try to influence the outcome of general elections is far more worrying than the fact that he is legally minimising his tax bill.